I Have a Question About Hell and Eternity

[John of Japan]

In Matt 10 we have a clear progression FROM "kill" to "destroy". Christ points out that in THIS life the wicked ARE able to "KILL the body but not (kill) the soul". But by comparison God not only kills but "DESTROYS" BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell.

The text is devastating to those who reject Christ's teaching that body and soul are not only KILLEd in fiery hell they are DESTROYED -- and instead they predict "eternal life for the soul but not the body in fiery hell".

Kill – Grk “Apokteino”

1. to kill in any way whatever
   1. to destroy, to allow to perish
2. metaph. to extinguish, abolish
   1. to inflict mortal death
   2. to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

NAS (74) - kill, 33; killed, 29; killing, 1; kills, 5; put to death, 4; put...to death, 2;

Detroy – Grk “apollumi”

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death

NAS (93) - bring, 1; destroy, 17; destroyed, 9; dying, 1; end, 1; killed, 1; lose, 10; loses, 7; lost, 14; much, 1; passed away, 1; perish, 14; perishable, 1; perished, 4; perishes, 1; perishing, 6; put to death, 1; ruined, 3;

In Christ,

Bob

Nice try but no cigar. Your interpretation is not at all devastating to the view that Hell is eternal punishment. What you are mistaking for progression of thought is simply Hebrew poetry, portrayed in parallel statements with synonyms.

I see that you can find a lexicon. However, modern linguistics recognizes that meaning is determined primarily by usage and not by lexicon. Appolumi is used quite often for simple death (and Hell is eternal death) and for spiritual death. I could give you many examples of the usage of this word, but it's late here in Japan. We'll just stick with Matthew, where the word appears 17 times besides the one you are talking about, none of which mean complete annhilation, as you wish the word to mean:

"Lord, save us, we perish" (the frightened disciples in 8:25).

"Lost (appolumi) sheep of the house of Israel" (10:6; also 15:24). This only means spiritually dead. (

"He that loseth his life" (10:39).

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." (18:11, spiritually lost; see also 18:14).

"Shall perish with the sword" (26:52, simple death).

Furthermore, in 10:28 the word for "Hell" is gehenna, which every Jew understood to be the ever burning unclean dump outside of Jerusalem. The word became the 1st century Jewish metaphor for Hell--a place where bodies were burned, where children were sacrificed centuries before, where the sewage was and the garbage dumped. The 1st century Jewish idea was not annhilation, unless you were a Saducee and didn't believe in any life after death, Heaven or Hell. It was ever burning gehenna.

 

[BobRyan]

Nice try but no cigar. Your interpretation is not at all devastating to the view that Hell is eternal punishment. What you are mistaking for progression of thought is simply Hebrew poetry, portrayed in parallel statements with synonyms.

#1. Matt 10 is not "Hebrew anything" it is Greek.

#2. The text ITSELF says "DO NOT fear those who can only kill the body in this life but not the soul. RATHER fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" -- the progression is so obvious a child can get this.

#3. you can not abolish the progression IN Matt 10:28 by going to other texts and trying to ignore Matt 10:28.

#4. There was no Hebrew form of "eternal hell" as there was in the pagan cultures.

"Destroy" is the right word so the NASB and all other major translators are "correct" as it turns out.

Shocking though that thought may be for some.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Furthermore the point of Matt 10:28 becomes "painfully obvious" even for the most tradition-steeped devotee to the more pagan views of hell - by simply ignoring the soul and paying attention to the body.

"Do not fear those who ARE ABLE to kill the body in this life... but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY the body in fiery hell".

This is the body not only KILLED as we SEE it happen in this life - but going beyond that this is the body DESTROYED in fiery hell.

Only the problem for some is that "SO IS THE SOUL" destroyed in that same PROGRESSION where the body is merely killed in this life - but killed AND destroyed in the lake of fire.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[John of Japan]

#1. Matt 10 is not "Hebrew anything" it is Greek.

#2. The text ITSELF says "DO NOT fear those who can only kill the body in this life but not the soul. RATHER fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" -- the progression is so obvious a child can get this.

#3. you can not abolish the progression IN Matt 10:28 by going to other texts and trying to ignore Matt 10:28.

#4. There was no Hebrew form of "eternal hell" as there was in the pagan cultures.

"Destroy" is the right word so the NASB and all other major translators are "correct" as it turns out.

Shocking though that thought may be for some.

In Christ,

Bob

I am amazed!!! Do you actually deny the fact that Jesus was a Jew and spoke in Aramaic? Do you also deny that His culture was Jewish and He used Jewish imagery, OT concepts and language and yes, often spoke in Hebrew poetic forms? If you deny this, then all I can do is shake my head in amazement. You are unconvincable.

You are also wrong about the Hebrew concept of Hell. You say it didn't exist. I suggest you forget your preconceptions and actually study the OT, the Hebrew Bible. You will then find such passages as Deut. 32:22, which clearly teach a fiery Hell (and yes I know that the Hebrew here is sheol): "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

Your interpretation of Matt. 10 has another fatal flaw. It ignores the rest of the Bible. We must always interpret the Bible in the light of the larger context of the entire Bible. For example, you give no explanation of my previous point that in Revelation in particular, the words "for ever and ever" (an unusual Greek idiom used only in Revelation) are used for both eternal reward and eternal punishment. If there is no eternal Hell, there is ergo, then no eternal Heaven by your logic.

 

[John of Japan]

Furthermore the point of Matt 10:28 becomes "painfully obvious" even for the most tradition-steeped devotee to the more pagan views of hell - by simply ignoring the soul and paying attention to the body.

"Do not fear those who ARE ABLE to kill the body in this life... but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY the body in fiery hell".

This is the body not only KILLED as we SEE it happen in this life - but going beyond that this is the body DESTROYED in fiery hell.

Only the problem for some is that "SO IS THE SOUL" destroyed in that same PROGRESSION where the body is merely killed in this life - but killed AND destroyed in the lake of fire.

In Christ,

Bob

And you believe this in spite of the fact that Matthew over and over again uses the same word appolumi to mean spiritual death or physical death, but never one time uses the word to mean annihilation. Linguistically speaking, you cannot make a word mean something different than the writer's usual meaning for that word. For that matter, I'd like to see you find anyplace in the NT where appolumi provably means complete annihilation. The word luo is what would be used for that, IMO.

 

[BobRyan]

The progression argues strongly for the term "Destroy" that the NASB, NKJV, NIV, Holman, Youngs Literal Translation ... all use here. It is beyond debate sir.

DESTROY as a progression from KILL is clearly there and the major Bible translation groups all see it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I am amazed!!! Do you actually deny the fact that Jesus was a Jew and spoke in Aramaic? Do you also deny that His culture was Jewish and He used Jewish imagery, OT concepts and language and yes, often spoke in Hebrew poetic forms? If you deny this, then all I can do is shake my head in amazement. You are unconvincable.

I deny that Matt 10 was written in Hebrew.

I deny that Matt 10 is a "form of Hebrew poetry".

As hard as that may be for you to believe - that is my position.

Greek is greek. The NT authors of the Greek text were not writing Hebrew poetry. They intentionally wrote in Greek to reach "the empire".

You are also wrong about the Hebrew concept of Hell. You say it didn't exist.

On the contrary - the Hebrew does express terms for hell - they just don't use the pagan concept of eternal torture. In Hebrew - Hell consumes rather than simply tormenting and preserving existence for eternity. It burns on earth and consumes both the earth and the wicked just as we see it doing in Rev 21.

I suggest you forget your preconceptions and actually study the OT, the Hebrew Bible. You will then find such passages as Deut. 32:22, which clearly teach a fiery Hell (and yes I know that the Hebrew here is sheol): "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

Err. umm -- precisely!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 14:10 we are told that the saints - the holy ones - those who are "ever WITH Christ" will in fact be there to witness the complete time of torment and suffering of their loved ones in fiery hell.

For the wicked "suffer in the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His holy ones" in Rev 14:10 as we witness the fire and brimstone punishment fully displayed in Rev 20 as "the second death".

That is right - no partying while your precious family friends and loved ones writhe in agony in those flames.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

In Rev 14:10 we are told that the saints - the holy ones - those who are "ever WITH Christ" will in fact be there to witness the complete time of torment and suffering of their loved ones in fiery hell.

For the wicked "suffer in the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His holy ones" in Rev 14:10 as we witness the fire and brimstone punishment fully displayed in Rev 20 as "the second death".

That is right - no partying while your precious family friends and loved ones writhe in agony in those flames.

In Christ,

Bob

Revelation 14:10 (New King James Version)
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



Revelation 14:10 (King James Version)
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Where do you get that we will see our loved ones suffer in hell?

 

[John of Japan]

The progression argues strongly for the term "Destroy" that the NASB, NKJV, NIV, Holman, Youngs Literal Translation ... all use here. It is beyond debate sir.

DESTROY as a progression from KILL is clearly there and the major Bible translation groups all see it.

In Christ,

Bob

Don't you have any other strings on your banjo? Only the one verse?

"Beyond debate" because you state it to be so? I don't think so. I don't notice you being a recognized Bible scholar even in your own denomination.

But hey, what if I were to agree with you? You still can't prove your point. The verse say that we are to fear the One who "can" destroy body and soul in Hell, not who does. Your point remains unproven.

 

[John of Japan]

I deny that Matt 10 was written in Hebrew.

I deny that Matt 10 is a "form of Hebrew poetry".

As hard as that may be for you to believe - that is my position.

Hey, you have every right to believe like you do. Just try to understand what I said. I did NOT say that Matt. 10 was written in Hebrew. I said that Jesus spoke in Aramaic/Hebrew. Matthew then recorded His words in Greek. And He was a Jew steeped in the OT. Like it or not, these are facts recognized by all NT scholars.

Greek is greek. The NT authors of the Greek text were not writing Hebrew poetry. They intentionally wrote in Greek to reach "the empire".

So you deny that Matthew was quoting Jesus the Jew in Matt. 10? Very strange.

On the contrary - the Hebrew does express terms for hell - they just don't use the pagan concept of eternal torture. In Hebrew - Hell consumes rather than simply tormenting and preserving existence for eternity. It burns on earth and consumes both the earth and the wicked just as we see it doing in Rev 21.

Prove that Hell as eternal punishment comes from pagan sources. Quote me a pagan who taught that way and influenced the Jews--to prove this you'll have to show a Jewish source that admits this influence. I will await eagerly (and with great scepticism) the results of your search for such a source.

My experience here in Asia is that belief in eternal Hell comes from Christian sources, not from pagan. Shinto and Taoism and Confucianism have no teaching on Hell. Buddhist teaching originally was that there was no Hell, but a Japanese Buddhist priest spent time in the same village in China as a Nestorian missionary centuries ago, and then introduced the concept of an eternal Hell into Japanese Buddhism.

 

[BobRyan]

Hey, you have every right to believe like you do. Just try to understand what I said. I did NOT say that Matt. 10 was written in Hebrew. I said that Jesus spoke in Aramaic/Hebrew. Matthew then recorded His words in Greek. And He was a Jew steeped in the OT. Like it or not, these are facts recognized by all NT scholars.

Your argument appears to be that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic but was really using Hebrew poetry and when the Jewish-Hebrew authors wrote this account in Greek they simply left that out - so we are free to imagine what is not actually in the text - that it is a form of poetry and should not be taken literally as "destroy" the way our translators have done.

Did I miss anything?

I on the other hand will take the text as it reads.

Prove that Hell as eternal punishment comes from pagan sources. Quote me a pagan who taught that way and influenced the Jews--to prove this you'll have to show a Jewish source that admits this influence. I will await eagerly (and with great scepticism) the results of your search for such a source.

All I actually have to prove is that the text means what it says instead of inserting "eternal life in fire" in place of the Matt 10 progression of "kill" going to "destroy" for the body and also for the soul.

My job is actually pretty simple in this case.

My experience here in Asia is that belief in eternal Hell comes from Christian sources, not from pagan. Shinto and Taoism and Confucianism have no teaching on Hell. Buddhist teaching originally was that there was no Hell, but a Japanese Buddhist priest spent time in the same village in China as a Nestorian missionary centuries ago, and then introduced the concept of an eternal Hell into Japanese Buddhism.

You have to go to the Greek, Babylonian and Roman sources for the kind of paganism that was being adopted by the RCC. Rcc sources DO admit that they borrowed from paganism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[John of Japan]

Your argument appears to be that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic but was really using Hebrew poetry and when the Jewish-Hebrew authors wrote this account in Greek they simply left that out - so we are free to imagine what is not actually in the text - that it is a form of poetry and should not be taken literally as "destroy" the way our translators have done.

Did I miss anything?

I on the other hand will take the text as it reads.

You have proven to me that you do not know what Hebrew poetry is. It is a form that can be translated successfully, unlike English rhyming poetry. In this case it is pretty obvious to anyone who has studied Hebrew poetry that Christ is using it. Hebrew poetry is parallelism, and Christ spoke two parallel sentences, using two words meaning "kill." Those two words were translated into Greek by Matthew as apokteino and appolumi (which as I have proven but you reject, often means kill).

You have now had a very basic lesson on Hebrew poetry. I hope you remember it. If you at all really want to learn more, read the poetic books of the Bible paying attention to the parallelism. You will then grow in knowledge and appreciation of the Word of God. One the other hand, you can simply reject what I say out of hand, and refuse to grow. It is up to you.

You have to go to the Greek, Babylonian and Roman sources for the kind of paganism that was being adopted by the RCC. Rcc sources DO admit that they borrowed from paganism.

In Christ,

Bob

Funny, we were talking about the Jewish view of the afterlife, which you said came from the pagans. I challenged you on that. Now instead of meeting my challenge you are talking about the RCC. Make up your mind.

The truth is, though, I don't think you can prove even the RCC got their teaching from pagan sources. You would have to do so from the church fathers. You are welcome to try. I have electronic versions of the church fathers, and I would happily check any quotes you give me. So have at it. Prove what you say.

God bless.

 

[John of Japan]

Your argument appears to be that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic but was really using Hebrew poetry and when the Jewish-Hebrew authors wrote this account in Greek they simply left that out - so we are free to imagine what is not actually in the text - that it is a form of poetry and should not be taken literally as "destroy" the way our translators have done.

I reject your conclusion that all our translators agree with you, but I don't have time to deal with it in detail. Suffice it to say that if they did there would be far more annihilationists among evangelical Bible translators than there are. (By the way, I know whereof I speak on this matter, since I am working with a new Japanese NT translation project.)

 

[BobRyan]

You have proven to me that you do not know what Hebrew poetry is. It is a form that can be translated successfully,

I don't doubt that we see it translated in the OT where Hebrew is actually being translated and we can see both texts.

I do doubt he practice of "inserting Hebrew poetry" in the NT Greek whenever one is not satisified with what the Greek text is saying.

I am funny that way.

Those two words were translated into Greek by Matthew as apokteino and appolumi (which as I have proven but you reject, often means kill).

My argument is that the Bible Translators are correct.

You have now had a very basic lesson on Hebrew poetry.

Greek poetry? Hebrew text for Matt 10 being translated?

I think you are getting lost in your own story telling.

As I said - I think the Bible translations are correct.

Funny, we were talking about the Jewish view of the afterlife, which you said came from the pagans. I challenged you on that.

Actually I am arguing that the Hebrew view of Hell as seen in the Hebrew text of the OT (another quirk I have is to use Hebrew to show what the Hebrew view is...) does not match the pagan view that was later inserted into Christianity and and adopted by some Jewish groups in the NT age.

Now instead of meeting my challenge you are talking about the RCC. Make up your mind.

I am simply showing the pagan source for the myths inserted into Christian doctrines during the dark ages.

The truth is, though, I don't think you can prove even the RCC got their teaching from pagan sources.

Coming up.

You would have to do so from the church fathers. You are welcome to try.

Not only those references - but pro-Catholic historians who are themselves practicing Catholics and best-selling authors admit to this pagan insertion for RC teaching.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Origin of the Christian Hell [1]

Jesus Mysteries ​

[Of hell] "The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers"
[...]
"Origen, however, was posthumously condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a heretic for his compassionate belief that all souls would eventually be redeemed. The Roman Church required all Christians to believe that some souls would suffer in hell forever, while the faithful would enjoy eternal salvation. This is the one doctrine on the afterlife which Celsus regards as distinctively Christian. He writes:
'Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous of the reward of the blessed) could have imagined' "
Jesus Mysteries [buy] | Info/Quotes, p90
"In the King James Version of the Bible, the Hebrew word sheol and Greek word hades (two very different concepts) are both generally translated as Hell."
www.religioustolerance.org
Plutarch (46-125CE) and the early Christians viewed hell as a symbolic place. It was only over time that Christianity became the literalistic belief system that it is now, initially all of its teachings were either Roman Mystery religion or Jewish in origin. The Valley of Hinnom (see above) was a place where sinners were actually burnt, the hell that the pagan religions believed in was a symbolic place (where those who died went) used to persuade people to behave better, and the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of Hell. The result was that Christianity, a religion that was popular amongst the illiterate and undereducated in the Roman empire, lost its inner symbolic nature and became seen as an actual real place where sinners were punished forever, after death.
Hell in the Koran [3]

Why I am not a Muslim ​

​

"The Koran refers to the seven heavens (17.46; 23.88; 41:11; 65:12), a notion also found in Chegiga 9.2. In the Koran, hell is said to have seven divisions or portals (15.44); in Zohar 2.150 we find the same description. These notions go back to old Indo-Iranian sources, because in both Hindu and Zoroastrian scriptures we find the seven creations and seven heavens. [...] In sura 43.76 we find reference to Malik as the keeper of hell who presides over the tortures of the damned; similarly the Jews talk of the Prince of Hell. Malik is obviously a corruption of the Fire God of the Ammonites, Molech, mentioned in Leviticus,1 Kings, and Jeremiah."
"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq p48

 

[BobRyan]

History of Hell

“The Teutonic Goddess of the Dead and daughter of Loki was named Hel, a Pagan god of torture and punishment. Another "L" was added when the books of the Old Testament were formulated4. The prophets who wrote the Bible did not know the word "Hell"; they used the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades, which meant the grave; also the Greek Tartaros, which was the abode of fallen angels, the underworld (inside the earth), and Gehenna, which was a valley near Jerusalem where Moloch reigned and garbage was dumped and burned. It is from this that the Christian Church has evolved the idea of "fire and brimstone" in Hell.
The Protestant Hell and the Catholic Hell are places of eternal punishment; however, the Catholics also believe there is a "Purgatory" where all souls go for a time, and a "Limbo" where unbaptized souls go. The Buddhist Hell is divided into eight sections, the first seven of which can be expiated. The ecclesiastical description of Hell is that of a horrible place of fire and torment; in Dante's Inferno, and in northern climates, it was thought to be an icy cold region, a giant refrigerator.”
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/hell.html#History

Egyptian, 2400BCE

“The pyramid texts composed by the priests of Heliopolis for the tombs of the V Dynasty c.2400 BC show [were first historical record of an idea of heaven and hell] This invention of the hell/heaven sanction by the Egyptians has been of the highest significance in subsequent moral control, and in Egypt, as with most other societies, its function was to support the monarchy”
"A History of Sin" by Oliver Thomson, p66
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/hell.html#Egyptian

 

[BobRyan]

In classic Greek mythology, below heaven, earth, and hades is Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek Τάρταρος, deep place). It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit or abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering. While almost all the dead were said to go to hades, the gods cast the very worst mortal sinners and immortal enemies into tartarus for endless punishment. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. As a place of punishment, it can be considered a hell. The classic hades, on the other hand, is more similar to Old Testament sheol.
The New Testament mentions tartarus by name once, where it means a dark dungeon where the rebellious angels are imprisoned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

 

[BobRyan]

To be clear - I do not claim that these pagan myths were the beliefs or teaching of NT saints - NT authors, OT authors - but they have been inserted into Christianity over time and have also crept into what now is modern Judaism.

 

[Steven2006]

As per Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible
edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D

Lexical Aids To The New Testament

622. Apollumi; or apolluo, from the inten. apo (575) and olluo, to destroy. In the N.T. to kill, destroy, wether temorarily (Mt. 2:13; 27:20; Mk 11:18; Jn 10:10) or eternally (Mt. 10:28; 18:14); in the mid. and pass., to be destroyed, perish, wether temporarily (Mt. 26:52, cf 9:17; Heb. 1:11; Mk. 4:38; Lk. 11:51; 15:17); or eternally (Jn. 3:15, 16; 10:28; Rom. 2:12; 1Cor. 1:18); to lose (LK. 15:4; Mt. 10:39; 16:25); in the pass, and mid., to be lost(Mt. 15:24; 18:11; Lk. 15:4, 6, 24). The part. noun ho apolluion, the destroyer or the destroying one (Rev. 9:11). Deriv: ollumi, to ruin or destroy, lose; apoleia (684), lost; Apolluon (623), the Destroyer.