I Have a Question About Hell and Eternity

[John of Japan]

I don't doubt that we see it translated in the OT where Hebrew is actually being translated and we can see both texts.

I do doubt he practice of "inserting Hebrew poetry" in the NT Greek whenever one is not satisified with what the Greek text is saying.

I am funny that way.

This is a scurrilous accusation. I read the Greek and translate it every day. I translate all day on Friday. I am perfectly satisfied with what the Greek is saying.

My argument is that the Bible Translators are correct.

Fine. Then deal with the word "can" in your verse.

But even if the word "can" were not in there, I know of no translation that uses "annhihilate," the meaning you want. According to the Microsoft Bookshelf '98 definition:

de·stroyed​

, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys verb, transitive​

1.​

​

​

To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.​

2.​

​

​

To tear down or break up; demolish. See synonyms at ruin.​

3.​

​

​

To do away with; put an end to: "In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness" (George Bernard Shaw).​

4.​

​

​

To kill: destroy a rabid dog.​

5.​

​

​

To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.​

6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

Greek poetry? Hebrew text for Matt 10 being translated?

I think you are getting lost in your own story telling.

As I said - I think the Bible translations are correct.




Actually I am arguing that the Hebrew view of Hell as seen in the Hebrew text of the OT (another quirk I have is to use Hebrew to show what the Hebrew view is...) does not match the pagan view that was later inserted into Christianity and and adopted by some Jewish groups in the NT age.



I am simply showing the pagan source for the myths inserted into Christian doctrines during the dark ages.



Coming up.



Not only those references - but pro-Catholic historians who are themselves practicing Catholics and best-selling authors admit to this pagan insertion for RC teaching.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[John of Japan]

I don't doubt that we see it translated in the OT where Hebrew is actually being translated and we can see both texts.

I do doubt he practice of "inserting Hebrew poetry" in the NT Greek whenever one is not satisified with what the Greek text is saying.

I am funny that way.

This is a scurrilous accusation. I read the Greek and translate it every day. I translate all day on Fridays. I am perfectly satisfied with what the Greek is saying. I am also fully aware of what are called "Hebraisms" in the Greek NT.

I'm forced to conclude that you know no language besides English, since you fail to understand how the culture and literature of one language enters another, in particular how the Jews who wrote almost all of the NT let their Jewishness come through in their Greek writing.

My argument is that the Bible Translators are correct.

Still playing your one-string banjo? Fine. Then deal with the word "can" in your verse.

But even if the word "can" were not in there, I know of no translation that uses "annhihilate," the meaning you want. According to the Microsoft Bookshelf '98 definition of destroy, the word you keep harping on, it means much more besides annhilate, and can mean simply "kill":

de·stroyed​

​

​

, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys verb, transitive​

1. ​

​

To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.​

2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See synonyms at ruin.


3. To do away with; put an end to: "In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness" (George Bernard Shaw).


4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.


5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.


6.To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

Greek poetry? Hebrew text for Matt 10 being translated?

I think you are getting lost in your own story telling.

Sigh. I never said a word about Greek poetry. With your attitude (and evident lack of knowledge about any kind of poetry), if I translated a haiku poem by Basho into English, you'd probably say, "That's a neat American poem."

I think you are ignoring the facts. We'll agree to disagree.

Not only those references - but pro-Catholic historians who are themselves practicing Catholics and best-selling authors admit to this pagan insertion for RC teaching.

I'm not interested in "practicing Catholics" or "best-selling authors." I want genuine scholarship.

 

[John of Japan]

double post

 

[John of Japan]

Origin of the Christian Hell [1]

Jesus Mysteries​

[Of hell] "The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers"
[...]
"Origen, however, was posthumously condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a heretic for his compassionate belief that all souls would eventually be redeemed. The Roman Church required all Christians to believe that some souls would suffer in hell forever, while the faithful would enjoy eternal salvation. This is the one doctrine on the afterlife which Celsus regards as distinctively Christian. He writes:
'Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous of the reward of the blessed) could have imagined' "
Jesus Mysteries [buy] | Info/Quotes, p90
"In the King James Version of the Bible, the Hebrew word sheol and Greek word hades (two very different concepts) are both generally translated as Hell."
www.religioustolerance.org
Plutarch (46-125CE) and the early Christians viewed hell as a symbolic place. It was only over time that Christianity became the literalistic belief system that it is now, initially all of its teachings were either Roman Mystery religion or Jewish in origin. The Valley of Hinnom (see above) was a place where sinners were actually burnt, the hell that the pagan religions believed in was a symbolic place (where those who died went) used to persuade people to behave better, and the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of Hell. The result was that Christianity, a religion that was popular amongst the illiterate and undereducated in the Roman empire, lost its inner symbolic nature and became seen as an actual real place where sinners were punished forever, after death.
Hell in the Koran [3]

Oh, this is rich! You are quoting from a website that uses The Satanic Bible as a primary source, and you expect us to acknowledge it as scholarship??? Shazzam!! :laugh:

 

[John of Japan]

In classic Greek mythology, below heaven, earth, and hades is Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek Τάρταρος, deep place). It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit or abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering. While almost all the dead were said to go to hades, the gods cast the very worst mortal sinners and immortal enemies into tartarus for endless punishment. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. As a place of punishment, it can be considered a hell. The classic hades, on the other hand, is more similar to Old Testamentsheol.
The New Testament mentions tartarus by name once, where it means a dark dungeon where the rebellious angels are imprisoned.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades[/URL]

So where is the smoking gun? Where is a single church father who taught annihilation?? Which church father quotes Plato?

On the contrary, the church fathers taught the reality of Hell as a place of punishment, not annihilation. Note this from Chrysostom: "At that rate thou wilt deny that even the devil is punished For, “Depart,” He says, “into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41.) Now if there be no hell, then neither is he punished. But if he is punished, it is plain that we shall also. For we also have disobeyed, even if it be not in the same way. And how comest thou not to be afraid to speak such daring things? For when thou sayest that God is merciful, and doth not punish, if He should punish he will be found in thy case to be no longer merciful" (from Homily 25 on Romans 14:1-2)

Even Origen, the noted heretic, wrote: "For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts — according as they shall be deemed worthy — some in the place which is called 'hell,' others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used, do they come down from the 'upper world' to this “hell.” For that 'hell' to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world, is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: 'Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell'" (Origen de Principiis, Book 4, Ch. 1).

Again, Augustine, Exposition on the Book Psalms, on Ps. 6: "That rich man, of whom the Lord speaks, who saw Lazarus in rest, but bewailed himself in torments, confessed in hell, yea so as to wish even to have his brethren warned, that they might keep themselves from sin, because of the punishment which is not believed to be in hell. Although therefore to no purpose, yet he confessed that those torments had deservedly lighted upon him; since he even wished his brethren to be instructed, lest they should fall into the same."

 

[BobRyan]

[Of hell] "The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers"
[...]
"Origen, however, was posthumously condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a heretic for his compassionate belief that all souls would eventually be redeemed. The Roman Church required all Christians to believe that some souls would suffer in hell forever, while the faithful would enjoy eternal salvation. This is the one doctrine on the afterlife which Celsus regards as distinctively Christian. He writes:
'Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous of the reward of the blessed) could have imagined' "
Jesus Mysteries [buy] | Info/Quotes, p90
"In the King James Version of the Bible, the Hebrew word sheol and Greek word hades (two very different concepts) are both generally translated as Hell."
www.religioustolerance.org
Plutarch (46-125CE) and the early Christians viewed hell as a symbolic place. It was only over time that Christianity became the literalistic belief system that it is now, initially all of its teachings were either Roman Mystery religion or Jewish in origin. The Valley of Hinnom (see above) was a place where sinners were actually burnt, the hell that the pagan religions believed in was a symbolic place (where those who died went) used to persuade people to behave better, and the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of Hell.

 

[BobRyan]

John said =

Prove that Hell as eternal punishment comes from pagan sources. Quote me a pagan who taught that way and influenced the Jews--to prove this you'll have to show a Jewish source that admits this influence. I will await eagerly (and with great scepticism) the results of your search for such a source.

My experience here in Asia is that belief in eternal Hell comes from Christian sources, not from pagan.

Bob said

In classic Greek mythology, below heaven, earth, and hades is Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek Τάρταρος, deep place). It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit or abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering. While almost all the dead were said to go to hades, the gods cast the very worst mortal sinners and immortal enemies into tartarus for endless punishment. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. As a place of punishment, it can be considered a hell. The classic hades, on the other hand, is more similar to Old Testamentsheol.
The New Testament mentions tartarus by name once, where it means a dark dungeon where the rebellious angels are imprisoned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

The Buddhist Hell is divided into eight sections, the first seven of which can be expiated. The ecclesiastical description of Hell is that of a horrible place of fire and torment; in Dante's Inferno, and in northern climates, it was thought to be an icy cold region, a giant refrigerator.”
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/hell.html#History

Facinatingly - the RCC itself admits to pagan influence mixing in with Christian practices and beliefs.

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic book "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

"the clergy at first were not sharply differentiated from the laity..the clergy married, raised families, and earned their livelihood at some trade or profession. But as the practice grewof paying them..they withdrew more and more from secular pursuits, until by the fourth century such withdrawal was deemed obligatory"

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder (as they were really known) avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and, in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest[/b]. He (the real Christian leader) saw his primary function as the ministry of the word. ..but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character."

"[b]the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister[/b] as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. "

"before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred (priesthood of all) as opposed to the profane world. After Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between the church and the world, the polarity between the sacred and profane was transformed into one between the sacred clergy and the profane laity"

 

[BobRyan]

Facinatingly - the RCC itself admits to pagan influence mixing in with Christian practices and beliefs.

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic book "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Ibid - Page 42
"the liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church
and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy;[/b] the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection,
devotion to relics, use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians
began to face the east while praying which made it necessary for the priest to lead prayers while his back was toward the congregation."
…
pg 43
for a long time the celebrant was left considerable freedom to improvise in conducting the liturgy. Even wording of the canon was left to his
discretion.

At first Constantine observed an attitude of formal correctness toward paganism. He remained its Supreme Pontiff, paid homage to the sun god on the official coinage, and in general was careful not to alienate the pagan masses…But he gradually revealed his true feelings. He imposed restrictions on pagan practice and publicly displayed the Christian symbols[/b] He attached the standards of the army to a cross emblazoned with the monograme of Christ and issued coins picturing himself wearing a helmet stamped with the same monogram…he increasingly identified the interests of the state with those of Christianity.
(Bokenkotter "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" page 38)

“The emperor showed great generosity to the Church in lavishing donations on it and erecting numerous sumptuous basilicas, including the magnificent one over the supposed site of the tomb of Peter at Rome and another over the tomb of Christ in Jerusalem. He surrendered HIS Lateran palace in Rome to the bishop of Rome for a residence and it remained the Papal residence until 1308. When in 324 he moved the capital of the Empire to Byzantium, which was renamed Constantinople after him, he erected numerous churches there…

"[b]This alliiance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life.[/b] It carried many advantages, but it also entailed
some serious drawbacks; ... Mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world." Ibid - Pg 39

 

[BobRyan]

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Oh, this is rich! You are quoting from a website that uses The Satanic Bible as a primary source, and you expect us to acknowledge it as scholarship??? Shazzam!! :laugh:

I claim that paganism is the author of the concepts of hell later infused into Christianity by Catholics who THEMSELVES admit to the influence of paganism on their beliefs and practices... then you complain that I SHOW that this view IS correct - that the pagan sources themselves admit to their own invention of the myth??

What part of this is "reason" on your part?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

More of Christian sources confessing their links and similarities to paganism --

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. [b]The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints[/B]. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, [b]had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship[/b] with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

 

[BobRyan]

Having said that - let's go to the Bible teaching on hell -

First a set of 3 points to "make this simple" for all.

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell == Eternal Fire == Fire and Brimstone == Second Death (lake of fire)

1.
Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9)
The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

2.
The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):

 

[BobRyan]

Fiery Hell – is in fact “eternal fire”

Matt 18:8-9
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”[/b]. So [b]eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone[/b] and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

So they are a perfect example of the punishment of eternal fire DESTROYING something.

Let’s not turn a blind eye to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from [b]Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.[/b]
30 "It will be [b]just the same[/b] on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.


The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”


Rev 21:
8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.[/quote]



Just as we saw this SAME thing destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (eternal fire DESTROYED those cities) so it will destroy the wicked in the Lake of Fire "Both Body AND SOUL" according to Matt 10:28

 

[BobRyan]

Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


[b]The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.[/b]


The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather [b[/B]]fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear:

fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, [b]fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”[/quote]

The wicked will “be no more”

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and [b]man became a living soul.[/b]

]Ezek 18
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.[/b]


Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more” reduced to ashes

[quote]Ezek 28 <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
[b] It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"

How great the contrast between Satan’s “beginning” and his “end” –

Ezek 28 -- same as above
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the

seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13
"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14
"You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15
"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.

The wicked are destroyed “Both Body AND soul” Matt 10:28 and “Destroy” means “Reduced to Ashes” (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)

 

[BobRyan]

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather

fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Question for the exegetical review –

#1. What would the primary intended readers of Matt 10 have accepted as “in this life” the wicked ARE able to “Destroy the body” to “Kill the body”. Would they not think of it as “really kill the body” or would they see themselves in “ever-living-physical bodies” that the wicked NOT able to kill much less destroy??

Answer: They would obviously accept that their earthly bodies ARE killed, tormented and even destroyed in this life!! Destroyed as in “killed and turned into ashes”

#2. Would the first order primary audience have concluded that to DESTROY the body goes beyond just KILLING it and leaving it in tact as a corpse? Would they conclude that DESTORY means to not only kill – but ALSO to destroy the remains of the body!?? Indeed they would!

Jude
7 just as [b]Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities[/b] around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
[

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from [b]Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be [b]just the same[/b] on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.



2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned [b]the cities[/b] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [b]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/b], having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;


Mal 4:1,3 The wicked will be set ablaze – turned to ashes, nothing left

 

[BobRyan]

This is a scurrilous accusation. I read the Greek and translate it every day. I translate all day on Friday. I am perfectly satisfied with what the Greek is saying.

Then you finally figured out that you are not reading Hebrew poetry in Matt 10??

Fine. Then deal with the word "can" in your verse.

Both Luke and Matt make it clear that God not only CAN but DOES put people in fiery hell.

Your point fails before it gets started sir.

But even if the word "can" were not in there, I know of no translation that uses "annhihilate,"

Again your argument dies in infancy. It is ALREADY glaringly obvious to the reader that in THIS life "KILL the body" does NOT mean "cause it to live forever".

So you imagining that to "not only KILL the body but also DESTROY it" means "cause it to live for ever" - is clearly failed logic.

Once we add the fact that Christ ALSO adds the SOUL to that situation - you are at a complete - dead stop.

This is so glaringly obvious that no amount of dancing on your part is getting around this halt in your argument sir. Microsoft is simply not helping you here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As per Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible
edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D

Lexical Aids To The New Testament

622. Apollumi; or apolluo, from the inten. apo (575) and olluo, to destroy. In the N.T. to kill, destroy,

This is why I really like what the NASB, NKJV, NIV, KJV, YLT, ... etc all do in Matt 10:28.


And it is clear that the "KILL" of the body but not the soul - being extended to this kill AND DESTROY of BOTH body and soul in fiery hell - is a clear and obvious progression from the lesser to the greater.

It is also clear why you should fear the one not the other.

It is also clear that "kill the body" in this life does not mean" keep it alive forever".

In this simple obvious points - your entire case dies.

Surely that is just as obvious to you sir. Why not just accept scripture for what it is saying here?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[John of Japan]

I claim that paganism is the author of the concepts of hell later infused into Christianity by Catholics who THEMSELVES admit to the influence of paganism on their beliefs and practices... then you complain that I SHOW that this view IS correct - that the pagan sources themselves admit to their own invention of the myth??

What part of this is "reason" on your part?

In Christ,

Bob

This is absolutely bizzarre! You trust the word of Satanists (not simple pagans, as you claim)! I can't believe it! You actually trust what Anton LeVey, the "father" of modern Satanism, says, and will give his views real respect over against the view of a missionary of the Lord Jesus Christ with extensive Bible training (namely little old me).

Of course Satanists will make those kinds of claim! They have an anti-Christian, anti-truth agenda! Their whole goal is to tear down any form of Bible truth or even false forms of Christianity. They don't want to believe what you believe about the Lord, and they don't want to believe what I believe about the Lord, and yet you think they are a valid source, but tear down everything I have said. Whew!!

I have enjoyed the give and take, except for your insistence on being absolutely right, (oh, no, I couldn't possibly know anything about Hebrew poetry, could I :laugh: ), and your constant carping over the same point.

But I'll tell you what, this takes the cake. You may be a nice person in real life, but with your defense of the Satanist "Bible" as a valid source I have lost all confidence in your discernment. This "debate" has changed character and become an argument. I hate argument as much as I love debate.

 

[John of Japan]

[Of hell] "The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers"
[...]
"Origen, however, was posthumously condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a heretic for his compassionate belief that all souls would eventually be redeemed. The Roman Church required all Christians to believe that some souls would suffer in hell forever, while the faithful would enjoy eternal salvation. This is the one doctrine on the afterlife which Celsus regards as distinctively Christian. He writes:
'Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous of the reward of the blessed) could have imagined' "
Jesus Mysteries [buy] | Info/Quotes, p90
"In the King James Version of the Bible, the Hebrew word sheol and Greek word hades (two very different concepts) are both generally translated as Hell."
www.religioustolerance.org
Plutarch (46-125CE) and the early Christians viewed hell as a symbolic place. It was only over time that Christianity became the literalistic belief system that it is now, initially all of its teachings were either Roman Mystery religion or Jewish in origin. The Valley of Hinnom (see above) was a place where sinners were actually burnt, the hell that the pagan religions believed in was a symbolic place (where those who died went) used to persuade people to behave better, and the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of Hell.

The Jesus Mysteries is an anti-Christian book that claims that Jesus Christ was a pagan god and there are many errors in the Bible.

The religioustolerance.org website defends such false religions as Buddhism, Wicca/witchcraft, Taoism, the ever morally-impure Hinduism, etc. The "Statement of Belief" on the website shows that they do not believe in absolutes: "We believe that the systems of truth in the field of morals, ethics, and religious belief that we have studied are not absolute: they vary by culture, by religion, and over time."

Bob, if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas, and you are just covered with fleas. You sign "In Christ" at the end of your posts. Do you really mean it? Then why are you quoting as authorities these enemies of the true Jesus Christ of the Bible?