I Have a Question About Hell and Eternity

[DHK]

I keep insisting that CHRIST DID NOT Write the book of Matthew OR the book of JUDE -- but that BOTH Books ARE the WORD OF GOD and that Christ is teaching in BOTH through inspiration via the Holy Spirit.
Bob

You said:

"When Christ said..."

and then quoted the book of Jude.

Christ did not say or author the book of Jude.
So why are you trying to backtrack on your words now?
Why not just admit that you were wrong in the first place?
Christ didn't say anything in the Book of Jude. Jude said the the things in the Book of Jude, albeit they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
You said:

"When Christ said..."

and then quoted the book of Jude.

Indeed I did not say "CHRIST WROTE" and then quote Matthew OR the book of Jude sir!

How obvious!

God said -
John 16
12 ""I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 ""He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.[/b]

Paul SAID -

1Thess 2
13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

So "YES" the WORD given to us in the APOSTOLIC TEACHING we find in Jude is "The WORD of God" and as we see from John 16 it IS "The Word of Christ" it is the TEACHING of Christ it is what Christ said to Jude through the Holy Spirit.

A more glaringly obvious point could hardly be imagined sir!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now here is what "I have to believe". I believe there ARE Baptist Christians out there that STILL DO hold t integrity to the Word of God.

While they may agree on this topic that they need a solution for the everlasting fire problem in Jude - they have to be outright embarrassed at the Bible-denying tactic being used here by some who insist that we NOT view the INSPIRED writing of JUDE on the topic of EVERLASTING FIRE as being the teaching of Christ!!! They have to be SHOCKED at DHKs antics of false accusation and ad hominem attacks as his own failed arguments are exposed!!

I just have believe that those guys exist - as in the post that Bro Bob gave!

And so I steadfastly refuse to believe that the low-style antics that DHK and HBSMN are using here do NOT reflect the integrity and Bible understanding of even the average Baptist reader.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Quote:
Christ explains this concept of fiery hell destroying both body and soul using "everlasting fire"

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire (everlasting fire kjv).

God ALSO said -

John 16
12 ""I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 ""He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.[/b]

These are the exact quotes--

Then DHK said --

DHK said

You have this warped idea that just because all the Bible is inspired (which is true), that it all becomes the words of Jesus. That is wrong.

Don't try to wiggle out of your lie.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ explains this concept of fiery hell destroying both body and soul using "everlasting fire"

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire (everlasting fire kjv).


IF DHK is simply using this as an excuse to continue GAMING this topic perhaps I can revise my quote above to shut that RABBIT trail door on DHK by saying

"CHRIST explained through His Holy Spirit speaking to JUDE and resulting in the apostolic teaching found in the book of jude vs 7 regarding the subject of EVERLASTING FIRE..."

SOME Baptists here may not know that these are the SAME thing - but ALL will readily see that this is the thread-of-excuse that DHK uses to hang his rabbit trail upon!!

And his rabbit trail is all bluster simply to support his wild claims about NOT USING the book of Jude as the teaching of GOD on the subject of everlasting fire no matter WHAT IT SAYS to the contrary - since he wants to SNIPPET out Matt 25:41 as the only statement to be considered when coming to an understanding of the topic and the term!!

How sad.

How glaringly obvious to ALL!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear with wicked men plan to do – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul. Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God. But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture.

DHK said -

Burned but not anihilated. Why do you read into Scripture that which is not there. Have you not read of the "burning bush" in Moses time--it burned, but was not annihilated.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=973267&postcount=121

DHK provides for us – a perfect example “by contrast” to what is meant by everlasting fire and eternal fire in the modern man-made traditions of some Christian groups.

Notice that God’s Word tells us that the burning bush in Moses' day was neither “consumed” nor “destroyed”.

Ex 3
1Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
3So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."

 

[BobRyan]

Obviously we see no "eternal destroying" going on here..

Matt 2:13
13Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."

Matt 12
14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Obviously we see no "eternal destroying" going on here in Matthew's use of the term in the cases above..

Mark 3:6
The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

John 10:10
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

Clear examples where it is IMPOSSIBLE to argue for "a theif that continually and eternally destroys without actually wrecking something to the point of garbage"

It is at this point that HP jumps in to say that we can not take these as valid examples of actually destroying something!!!

Why propose such an illogical argument RIGHT at the moment that it would appear most absurd??

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"...Jude said the the things in the Book of Jude, albeit they were inspired by the Holy Spirit."

If I may throw my penny in, then Jude's words are authored by Christ. (I felt like using that smiley just right to me, but thought it irreverent.)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here's another question I would like to ask DHK to answer me on -- I am not dogmatic about it, sincerely, but some things are very difficult for me to understand about the concept of a never ending burning hell. My question is this, that we believe Jesus suffered for us the pangs of death and the reward for sin which is ... OR WAS? ... eternal hell?

 

[Andre]

Death is separation. Throughout the Bible it is always used as separation.
1. There is physical death.
"For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead."
James says the body without the spirit is dead. That is physical death, that we are all acquainted with--when the spirit leaves the body, and the body becomes a mere corpse. The body is separated from the spirit.

This only defence for the notion that death = separation in the Bible is the application of an invented cosmology where man has a consciousness-bearing soul / spirit that inhabits the body and survives bodily death. This, I assert, is taught nowhere in the Scriptures. This is hard for people to take since we are steeped in Greek dualistic concepts about the nature of the human person. I will claim that the Hebrew people had no such dualistic conception of the nature of the human person. When the writers of Scripture used the words "soul" or "spirit", they never intended to communicate the idea that man possesses a "ghost in the machine" that survives bodily death. We can argue this further if desired.

In any event, if one can, just for the sake of argument, wrench free from this dualistic conceptualization, one can avoid the awkwardness of the following:

1. Having to believe that death means the opposite of its nominal meaning. It seems like a dreadful kloodge to make death connote a never-ending state of eternal conscious torment. This sounds like life in all its fullness of experiential content, albeit a very unpleasant state of affairs.

2. Having to believe that numerous scriptures that say that the dead "sleep" really mean something diametrically opposed to the normal connotation of "sleep", which suggests the complete absence of conscious experience.

I find it very curious as to how references to death are re-worked to be references to life. Same thing with sleep. Sleep should conjure images of the absence of conscious experiences - that is basically what sleep is. And yet we are asked to rework the many scriptures (from both Testaments) to accomodate the view that an immortal consciousness bearing soul lives inside the body and is released at death. I have no idea how such a view is reconciled with the implications of the metaphor of sleep.

As to the "eternality of death". Yes, death is eternal. But this is entirely consistent with a view that the real truth is that it is a state of death (in the "lights out" sense) will last forever - it will never be reversed. To assert that it is a state of conscious eternal torment that lasts forever is to turn the nominal sense of the word "death" completely on its head.

And now with respect to the idea of eternal torment in flames:

The fate of the wicked is described many times in the Scriptures through an appeal to the imagery of fire. And if the fate of something that gets tossed into fire were not already obvious, certain Scriptures make it clear that the fate of something that is thrown into fire is consumption, not eternal steady-state existence. What fire have you witnessed that does not consume its fuel?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Andre:

"The fate of the wicked is described many times in the Scriptures through an appeal to the imagery of fire. And if the fate of something that gets tossed into fire were not already obvious, certain Scriptures make it clear that the fate of something that is thrown into fire is consumption, not eternal steady-state existence. What fire have you witnessed that does not consume its fuel?"

GE:

You argue things spiritual in a too cerebral way, I think. The Bible all over uses the unnatural picture of fire that never finishes its fuel. All things is possible for our God.

Let us rather think of the duration of hell with Divine Justice in mind, then the never ending hell fires seem to be ever too short to make good the injustice which the sinners had been thrown into hell for.

 

[DHK]

"...Jude said the the things in the Book of Jude, albeit they were inspired by the Holy Spirit."

If I may throw my penny in, then Jude's words are authored by Christ. (I felt like using that smiley just right to me, but thought it irreverent.)

Let's rewrite that statement:
Matthew wrote the things in the book of Matthew, albeit they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore "I will give you all of these if you bow down and worship me." were the words of Christ. Is this what you mean to say?

 

[BobRyan]

How many times does the obvious point have to be repeated for Matt 4 before the duck-dodge dancing of DHK ends??

Matthew WAS NOT PRESENT in the Matthew 4 temptation of Christ and DID NOT GO TO SATAN to ask for information!!

The inspired text GIVEN to Matthew was NOT GIVEN TO HIM BY SATAN!!

It is the Spirit of CHRIST SPEAKING to Matthew and informing him of the details of the temptation of Christ TEACHING him what CHRIST wanted him to know...

I just know there are many baptists who would cringe each time they see DHK pulling this stunt trying to game the text in an effort to cover his blunder regarding the WORD of GOD!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought the Bible was the inspired written word of God. Even though He, many times repeated others words, others deeds, yet it is His inspired words telling us. If you want to talk about scriptures themselves, they were told to us by the Lord, even though they were at many times other people's words. So, to say all scripture are the inspired word of God is correct, even though He is repeating someone else at times, but it was to get the message to us which is His message, His scriptures, His inspired Word.

 

[DHK]

How many times does the obvious point have to be repeated for Matt 4 before the duck-dodge dancing of DHK ends??

Matthew WAS NOT PRESENT in the Matthew 4 temptation of Christ and DID NOT GO TO SATAN to ask for information!!

The inspired text GIVEN to Matthew was NOT GIVEN TO HIM BY SATAN!!

It is the Spirit of CHRIST SPEAKING to Matthew and informing him of the details of the temptation of Christ TEACHING him what CHRIST wanted him to know...

I just know there are many baptists who would cringe each time they see DHK pulling this stunt trying to game the text in an effort to cover his blunder regarding the WORD of GOD!

In Christ,

Bob

Matthew was a historian. He recorded the events of the life of Christ. Like any historian his information may have come from different sources, the main source being from Christ himself. The Apostles were not robots mechanically taking dictation from the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there would not be any difference in their styles of writing. Paul was highly ediucated, and Peter attests that in his epistles were things "hard to understand." John, a fisherman, wrote in a very simple style. The Gospel of John is no doubt the easiest book in the Bible to read. Why is that? They had different backgrounds, different educational backgrounds; different personalities; and God allowed the expression of these things to shine through in their writings even though every word was inspired--superintended by the Holy Spirit. They were not robots taking dictation.
Mark got much of his information from Peter with whom he was closely associated. Mark was not an Apostle.
Luke was not an Apostle either. But he was a companion of Paul on his missionary journeys. Paul did received direct revelation from God.

Thus, like any historian, Matthew used different sources for his book. Each part of his book--every word of it--is inspired of the Holy Spirit. But not every word is Christ's word. In fact not every word is Matthew's word. Matthew quotes from Satan. He also quotes from from the Pharisees, the Saducees, the scribes, the disciples, and many others. Are we to take all these quotes and attribute all of them to Christ. God forbid! The words of Christ are written in red (in any red-letter edition Bible). Those only are the words of Christ. The rest of the words are the words of Matthew, unless Matthew is quoting another person. Then those words belong to that individual.
Inspiration simply tells us that the words recorded in the Gospel of Matthew are accurately recorded just in the way God wanted them to be recorded. They say exactly what God wanted them to say. For example if you change the statements that Satan said, then you are either adding to the Word of God or taking away from it. You would be altering it. Only what is written is inspired; not your opinion.
All the Bible is inspired; but not all the Bible are the words of Christ. To make such a claim is ludicrous.

"Go up thou bald head."

 

[Brother Bob]

God made it very clear that all Scripture, is inspired by Him. Therefore those who preach partial and degrees of inspiration are playing God. Since God is truth (John 3:33, Romans 3:4), whats breathed out by God, must also be true (John 17:17) and infallible. The process of inspiration is described in 2Peter 1:21, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. All Scripture was regarded by the Jews as prophecies, that it did not originate from man, but came from God.

someone else's words

 

[DHK]

God made it very clear that all Scripture, is inspired by Him. Therefore those who preach partial and degrees of inspiration are playing God. Since God is truth (John 3:33, Romans 3:4), whats breathed out by God, must also be true (John 17:17) and infallible. The process of inspiration is described in 2Peter 1:21, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. All Scripture was regarded by the Jews as prophecies, that it did not originate from man, but came from God.

No one is denying anything you said Bob.
And having said that, at 30 pages we will close this thread. Please start another if you so desire.