I Need Help Understanding if I did the Wrong Thing

[Steven Yeadon]

Several weeks ago, in my zeal, I made one determination that has completely blown apart my theology as much as it was blown apart by forsaking Moderate, Charismaticism for fundamentalism. I said I would be making no new threads for a little, and I have gotten myself back into research for my education instead of making threads, but this decision was monumental and was made well before my recent blitz of posts.

The decision was that I will trust no source who was a church leader and was guilty of innocent blood, or was guilty of a major sin as defined by the bible lists of reprobate sins. Should a church history leader fail to live up to at least David's standard of repentance for egregious sins, I do not accept their views. Simply put, I will never agree with any action or person who willfully took the blood of others, especially spiritual family, unless they repented. I get this from what I view as a literal reading of Matthew 7:15-20.

When I made this determination this meant that my church history books were good for fires and little else, as the history of the Church is replete with bloodshed and sin among its leaders. The biggest church history leaders to be chucked were Augustine, the Ecumenical Councils, and Luther.

This greatly troubled me and I tried to understand what was going on. Was the Roman Catholic Church and those too close to their style of tyranny the only ones culpable? My research in church history and Western Civ history found this to be a big "no."

Also, I believe strongly in separation and in church discipline, and because of this I decided to separate myself from all church movements that have not fully repented of their grisly pasts. Only four church traditions came up as fairly clean after research: Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, and the Salvation Army. Then I checked their doctrine to see if it was Literalist. This chucked out the modern Methodists and the modern Salvation Army. I was left with modern Anabaptists and the modern Baptists, who have doctrines I disagree with vociferously, but whom I may be able to agree to disagree with.

Also, I earned 45 credits towards an MDiv several years ago at a United Methodist seminary called Asbury Theological Seminary. I did this when I was a Moderate Charismatic. I am deeply disappointed with practically my whole education now, even the kind of stuff that would be taught at a Baptist seminary, now that it seems church history mostly means "history of the church under the Enemy instead of Jesus the Christ." Systematic theology has also stopped being a nice subject, which I used to love.

So, did I do the wrong thing or does this make sense to do? I lean towards this being the right thing to do, but I may have violated a biblical principle in my zeal to conform to Matthew 7:15-20.

 

[agedman]

More often when one is awakened to a need to assess, there is a pendulum like swing as they seek a new normal.

For the believer, it can begin with disappointment, discouragement, perhaps disolution, even enemy deceiving.

There are also landmark periods in a persons life and living such as age, health, death of near and dear, loss of job, status, financial setbacks, and the like.

What the true believer has that the world and worldly do not is that Spirit of peace. It isn't constricted to human understanding, yet can be shut out or quenched.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians saying:

12But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,13and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. 14We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 16Rejoice always; 17pray without ceasing; 18in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19Do not quench the Spirit; 20do not despise prophetic utterances. 21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22abstain from every form of evil.
​

Please be guided in your journey by these scriptures.

Also, there are 31 chapters in Proverbs. This is the second day of the month so consider reading the second chapter, the third day, read the third chapter and so forth, doubling up on the last two chapters on those months with only thirty days.

As you journey, be careful of in the area of judgment. It is good to discern, I would more believers would take such matters seriously. But, along with such discernment, do not allow a spirit of bitterness to replace the indignation you sense over the disregard of Godly living by others.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

More often when one is awakened to a need to assess, there is a pendulum like swing as they seek a new normal.

For the believer, it can begin with disappointment, discouragement, perhaps disolution, even enemy deceiving.

There are also landmark periods in a persons life and living such as age, health, death of near and dear, loss of job, status, financial setbacks, and the like.

What the true believer has that the world and worldly do not is that Spirit of peace. It isn't constricted to human understanding, yet can be shut out or quenched.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians saying:
12But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,13and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. 14We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 16Rejoice always; 17pray without ceasing; 18in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19Do not quench the Spirit; 20do not despise prophetic utterances. 21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22abstain from every form of evil.
Please be guided in your journey by these scriptures.

Also, there are 31 chapters in Proverbs. This is the second day of the month so consider reading the second chapter, the third day, read the third chapter and so forth, doubling up on the last two chapters on those months with only thirty days.

As you journey, be careful of in the area of judgment. It is good to discern, I would more believers would take such matters seriously. But, along with such discernment, do not allow a spirit of bitterness to replace the indignation you sense over the disregard of Godly living by others.

Thank you very much. I must spend time considering your words.

 

[agedman]

My apologies

The word assess is mispelled in the post, above.


The edit button isn’t available, so if a moderator would make the correction by adding the necessary “s” I would appreciate it.

 

[Billx]

I see Jesus speaking to the Jew first. Most of his words we said to primarily Jews. Much of his post resurrection ministry may have included a few [Edit: gentiles]. After his assumption the direction apostolic preaching including messianic gifts were directed toward the [Edit: gentiles]. When the apostolic periods came to an end most of these gifts cease. To the Jew first the the same signs to [Edit: gentiles]. I heard another man teach that whole period is called the period of the hypo static union. In that time the gospel which was give to Jews was by commission given to the [Edit: gentiles] the is the equality of Jesus in action and how he built his church. Charismatic folks love the gifts so much one wonders how much the giver is worshipped. Paul wrote, "tongues will cease." Apparently Paul believed in temporary period of these gifts. Do we pray for healing of body and soul, yes. After the apostolic period God it appears miracles went back to being a refreshing spiritual expression but not on demand nor normative.
Ecstatices are emotional by not theological. It is ok to get happy about Jesus. Let's accept sometimes our flesh is just happy and sometimes in prayer all we can do is groan or cry. Yet, these are not bad or apostolic gifts.

 

[TCassidy]

Two points.

First, "goy" is a derogatory term for a gentile. Please refrain from using derogatory terms.

Second, the "hypo-static union" as to do with the perfect union of the two natures of Christ, God and Man. It has nothing at all to do with the outreach of the first century.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Several weeks ago, in my zeal, I made one determination that has completely blown apart my theology as much as it was blown apart by forsaking Moderate, Charismaticism for fundamentalism. I said I would be making no new threads for a little, and I have gotten myself back into research for my education instead of making threads, but this decision was monumental and was made well before my recent blitz of posts.

The decision was that I will trust no source who was a church leader and was guilty of innocent blood, or was guilty of a major sin as defined by the bible lists of reprobate sins. Should a church history leader fail to live up to at least David's standard of repentance for egregious sins, I do not accept their views. Simply put, I will never agree with any action or person who willfully took the blood of others, especially spiritual family, unless they repented. I get this from what I view as a literal reading of Matthew 7:15-20.

When I made this determination this meant that my church history books were good for fires and little else, as the history of the Church is replete with bloodshed and sin among its leaders. The biggest church history leaders to be chucked were Augustine, the Ecumenical Councils, and Luther.

This greatly troubled me and I tried to understand what was going on. Was the Roman Catholic Church and those too close to their style of tyranny the only ones culpable? My research in church history and Western Civ history found this to be a big "no."

Also, I believe strongly in separation and in church discipline, and because of this I decided to separate myself from all church movements that have not fully repented of their grisly pasts. Only four church traditions came up as fairly clean after research: Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, and the Salvation Army. Then I checked their doctrine to see if it was Literalist. This chucked out the modern Methodists and the modern Salvation Army. I was left with modern Anabaptists and the modern Baptists, who have doctrines I disagree with vociferously, but whom I may be able to agree to disagree with.

Also, I earned 45 credits towards an MDiv several years ago at a United Methodist seminary called Asbury Theological Seminary. I did this when I was a Moderate Charismatic. I am deeply disappointed with practically my whole education now, even the kind of stuff that would be taught at a Baptist seminary, now that it seems church history mostly means "history of the church under the Enemy instead of Jesus the Christ." Systematic theology has also stopped being a nice subject, which I used to love.

So, did I do the wrong thing or does this make sense to do? I lean towards this being the right thing to do, but I may have violated a biblical principle in my zeal to conform to Matthew 7:15-20.

Interesting to learned that you studied at Asbury Seminary. That's in KY near Lexington isn't it? I was born in Danville, KY which isn't far away. There was a major revival there in the early 70's which seems to have been genuine. Here's my thought for you. Christ's Church is perfect and was established at Pentecost. This tradition was carried on initially by the Roman Catholic Church until the Reformation when Martin Luther pointed out some unacceptable ways the Catholic Church had strayed from Christ's view of His Church. other denominations were initiated. None of these are perfect but the really important thing to understand is that even in the best of them there are a large number of people in their churches who are hypocrites or what has recently been called "Christian Atheists."

I think there's a great deal of support and theological interpretation to be found in a Christian church which preaches the gospel as I understand it. I found that out in the middle 20 years of my life in which I didn't attend church regularly after a stong foundation in my youth. I very much resonate to the Parable of the Prodigal Son. I've chosen to stay in a church now which does some things that I don't agree with because of the many good Christian friends I have there who support me when I need Christian support. I have my own interpretation of the gospel which I find consistent with the Baptist principle of Priesthood of all Believers. I don't support the current effort by the SBC to make church members conform to what is really a creed which has never been a part of Baptist theology. My advice is do your own Bible study. Pray to God for understanding and talk with fellow Christians in a sincere community of faith. Don't reject denominations because of past history. They are led by humans who have made mistakes. Look to Jesus as the perfect example to model your life after.

 

[agedman]

I see Jesus speaking to the Jew first. Most of his words we said to primarily Jews. Much of his post resurrection ministry may have included a few [Edit: gentiles]. After his assumption the direction apostolic preaching including messianic gifts were directed toward the [Edit: gentiles]. When the apostolic periods came to an end most of these gifts cease. To the Jew first the the same signs to [Edit: gentiles]. I heard another man teach that whole period is called the period of the hypo static union. In that time the gospel which was give to Jews was by commission given to the [Edit: gentiles] the is the equality of Jesus in action and how he built his church. Charismatic folks love the gifts so much one wonders how much the giver is worshipped. Paul wrote, "tongues will cease." Apparently Paul believed in temporary period of these gifts. Do we pray for healing of body and soul, yes. After the apostolic period God it appears miracles went back to being a refreshing spiritual expression but not on demand nor normative.
Ecstatices are emotional by not theological. It is ok to get happy about Jesus. Let's accept sometimes our flesh is just happy and sometimes in prayer all we can do is groan or cry. Yet, these are not bad or apostolic gifts.

Just so the readers may discern...

There are those on the BB that ascribe to the view that languages and prophecy have ceased and foundational to their thinking is 1 Cor. 13.

However, there are others that see in history that no such condition has ceased but will when the Lord returns for the millennial reign.
For example: Betsy Ten Boom told her sister, Corrie, of the promises from God that had given her just before her passing. The promises were completely fulfilled.
Another example: The oldest eye witness written account by a woman of early church martyrdom was that of the diary of Perpetua written approximately in early 200's. This was long after the last apostle lived. The account of the martyrdom showed the prophecies given to both Perpetua and others were fulfilled.


This is not to state that the charismatic use is even close to being that of what Paul was discussing in 1 Cor. 13. For in that passage, the emphasis is not on the ability to use earthly languages, and how God might comfort and guide a believer who is under great duress, but upon the principle of what is actually the most important character of the believer.

Paul's statement of cessation states that even he with all the gifts that exceeded any in the world at that time could only see as if through a fog bank.

But, when will all believers know and see without hindrance or lingering questions, and when will the believers know others and themselves as clearly as God knows?

Only during the millennial reign, when Christ has returned with the believers who are now in their glorified estate, will we find all issues that the BB argues over, resolved.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Thinking about it for a few days now, I now see one basic thing: of course I did the right thing to distance myself and stop support of teachers and organizations that have terrible pasts. This seems basic to me now, it is not wrong to call a murderer a murderer and then stop hanging out with those that defend them. That is called a modicum of holiness. I may be wrong, because nonbelievers may call it a modicum of decency. I must now go forward from here it seems. A verse that has come to mind readily for days has been Matthew 7:18.

-EDIT-

Something that strikes me is how few Christians know any church history. However, when I explained my position to a woman in basic terms who was driving me, she immediately understood why I did what I did and even supported me. It was very odd given she claimed to be a believer who listens to raunchy hip hop and R&B and Christian music.

 

[rsr]

No, it is not wrong to call a murderer a murderer. But you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. A man may do terrible things and still be right about some other things. Augustine was wrong on many things, but I dare you to read his works and come to a conclusion that he was a man cut off from the grace of God.

Read Aquinas. Tough reading, but you will not find him killing people and wishing for their destruction.

Luther is difficult because he wrote so much. It was the age of printing and he said many things he shouldn't have said. If you're willing to throw out all the solas, have at it.

Calvin has many flaws. Surprise: He was human. He was struggling with a deep-seated corruption, intellectually and spiritually, and he did things we don't approve of.

If you want a Christianity ex nihilo, look to the churches of Christ. Even the early English Baptists accepted the ancient creeds and respected the writings of people they disagreed with. You want perfection; that is not to he found on this earth.

God created great minds. Study them, reject what is wrong and cling to what is true.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

No, it is not wrong to call a murderer a murderer. But you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. A man may do terrible things and still be right about some other things. Augustine was wrong on many things, but I dare you to read his works and come to a conclusion that he was a man cut off from the grace of God.

Read Aquinas. Tough reading, but you will not find him killing people and wishing for their destruction.

Luther is difficult because he wrote so much. It was the age of printing and he said many things he shouldn't have said. If you're willing to throw out all the solas, have at it.

Calvin has many flaws. Surprise: He was human. He was struggling with a deep-seated corruption, intellectually and spiritually, and he did things we don't approve of.

If you want a Christianity ex nihilo, look to the churches of Christ. Even the early English Baptists accepted the ancient creeds and respected the writings of people they disagreed with. You want perfection; that is not to he found on this earth.

God created great minds. Study them, reject what is wrong and cling to what is true.

I was about to agree with you, but when I think about it, there are so many Christian books and essays out by people I can deeply respect. They are just more arcane to find. However, your reply has convinced me to find much more scriptural support (or possibly scriptural opposition as I search) for what I believe before going on.

 

[rsr]

I am a fan of C.S. Lewis. He was wrong on many things, from my Baptist perspective, but I truly believe that without his influence I would not be a practicing Christian today. God uses frail vessels for his glory, despite their flaws.

"At present we are men looking at puzzling reflections in a mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face! At present all I know is a little fraction of the truth, but the time will come when I shall know it as fully as God now knows me!
In this life we have three great lasting qualities—faith, hope and love. But the greatest of them is love." I Corinthians 13: 12-13, J.B. Phillips translation

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I am a fan of C.S. Lewis. He was wrong on many things, from my Baptist perspective, but I truly believe that without his influence I would not be a practicing Christian today. God uses frail vessels for his glory, despite their flaws.

I guess I am wrestling with two things here:

1. Advice I have gotten to reject those that can lead you to the faith, but whose teachings are unbiblical in the end, such as your average charismatic pastor. The bible verses that come to mind are 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.

2. Taking the good and the bad together and discerning the good out of it. This reminds me of Kings really, as so many kings do terrible things later in life, but earlier you can learn a lot from them.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

I guess I am wrestling with two things here:

1. Advice I have gotten to reject those that can lead you to the faith, but whose teachings are unbiblical in the end, such as your average charismatic pastor. The bible verses that come to mind are 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.

2. Taking the good and the bad together and discerning the good out of it. This reminds me of Kings really, as so many kings do terrible things later in life, but earlier you can learn a lot from them.

Speaking from 1 Corinthians 5:11-13, did you notice the word railer? A good many of us do just that (to include myself).

 

[Steven Yeadon]

As with my post on whether Mormon martyrs go to heaven, I think a part of the question that started this thread when boiled down is: "What does the bible teach on false teachers?"

The bible shows that false teachers and their followers are so terrible to God, that they deserve special enmity and judgment. Believers are not even to welcome, eat with, hang out with, give comfort and lodging to, follow, learn from, or warmly greet (a sin I commit far too much) such false teachers and their followers who are lost in disobedience to Jesus' commands.

I use these two websites as reference material:

What Does the Bible Say About False Teachings?
14 Top Bible Verses About False Teachers - Scripture Warnings

The evidence is clear, those that hold onto doctrines that war against the commands of Jesus are just as bad as adulterers and murderers.

Now, the problem is what makes a false teacher? Well that is easy, it is anyone who teaches something that goes against the Gospel given to the saints. Now I admit there are things that are open to discussion because the bible may seem at first to support two or more positions on an issue. The Arminianism vs Calvinism debate is foremost in my mind.

Hmmm, I just realized the best thing I can do now is make a list of what I believe are debatable issues in the church. That will help my theology immensely. Thank you everyone for your great feedback.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I must say that it is very clear to me given the bible verses in my last post that those who did not strive and struggle to live as Jesus did are not people I can respect as my own teacher. I at least want to see conformity to the Sermon on the Mount as much as possible in one of my own teachers.

-EDIT-

This seems to exclude many, many people in church history as good teachers.

 

[rsr]

And we have come full circle. My advice at the beginning is that you likely will not find any church that will suit you. You will constantly be looking for the "perfect" church or denomination or teachings. And you will always be disappointed.

History — secular or religious — is full of rogues, morons, philosophers and philanthropists, and otherwise good people who are just horribly wrong on some topics.

Churches are the same; they are made up of the devout and the deceiving; those full of God's grace and full of themselves; and those who love God and those who love themselves. Sometimes they are the same people.

Not to speak ill of Menno, but surely you are aware of his heterodox views on the nature of Christ and the fact that he excommunicated the entirety of the Swiss Anabaptist churches because they didn't agree with him.

You want a purity of doctrine and practice. That is good. But since you want to take it to a punctilious level, you are sharing the mindset of those in church history whom you reject. No, I don't expect you to send your opponents to the pillory or jail or worse, but you will be among their number in spirit, if not in deed.

And that will be my last word to you on anything. God bless.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

And we have come full circle. My advice at the beginning is that you likely will not find any church that will suit you. You will constantly be looking for the "perfect" church or denomination or teachings. And you will always be disappointed.

History — secular or religious — is full of rogues, morons, philosophers and philanthropists, and otherwise good people who are just horribly wrong on some topics.

Churches are the same; they are made up of the devout and the deceiving; those full of God's grace and full of themselves; and those who love God and those who love themselves. Sometimes they are the same people.

Not to speak ill of Menno, but surely you are aware of his heterodox views on the nature of Christ and the fact that he excommunicated the entirety of the Swiss Anabaptist churches because they didn't agree with him.

You want a purity of doctrine and practice. That is good. But since you want to take it to a punctilious level, you are sharing the mindset of those in church history whom you reject. No, I don't expect you to send your opponents to the pillory or jail or worse, but you will be among their number in spirit, if not in deed.

And that will be my last word to you on anything. God bless.

I believe that I understand your perspective, but I have made a major choice, more than a bet, that Jesus will reward me for separating from most believers. Believers I believe he will chastise in some way for their lack of purity and holiness. For me, this means I will at last have a clean conscience.

I do this because most believers have compromised themselves with the world. Matthew 15:14 comes to mind as does 1 John 2:26-27 and 1 Timothy 1:3-7 as well as the Parable of the Sower. I am better off alone with God's Spirit guiding me than with people I think Jesus considers blind guides. I need a sincere faith, good conscience, and pure heart and I cannot do that as someone who mixes with those in disobedience to Jesus. I will be bold and say that Christians who do not war against the worries of this world, the allure of wealth and luxury and comfort, as well as the desire for earthly things ahead of the God's rule over creation, are blind guides. Yet, I am still a child in the faith at a little over one year old, and I have a lot of growing to do with God's Word.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

I believe that I understand your perspective, but I have made a major choice, more than a bet, that Jesus will reward me for separating from most believers. Believers I believe he will chastise in some way for their lack of purity and holiness. For me, this means I will at last have a clean conscience.

I do this because most believers have compromised themselves with the world. Matthew 15:14 comes to mind as does 1 John 2:26-27 and 1 Timothy 1:3-7 as well as the Parable of the Sower. I am better off alone with God's Spirit guiding me than with people I think Jesus considers blind guides. I need a sincere faith, good conscience, and pure heart and I cannot do that as someone who mixes with those in disobedience to Jesus. I will be bold and say that Christians who do not war against the worries of this world, the allure of wealth and luxury and comfort, as well as the desire for earthly things ahead of the God's rule over creation, are blind guides. Yet, I am still a child in the faith at a little over one year old, and I have a lot of growing to do with God's Word.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I don't even want to be as good as you if it involves relentless judgment of others. It's one thing to discern, it's completely another to put people under a character microscope to find some biblical error in them. I think a little 1 Corinthians 13 is in order.

1 Corinthians 13English Standard Version (ESV)

The Way of Love

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[agedman]

Though I don’t agree with everything any writer writes, J. I. Packer’s “Knowing God” is extremely good.

He is scholarly and seems authentic in desire to see the believer thrive in wisdom and knowledge.