I think John 9:39-41 says it all...

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John 9:39-41 -- "39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." Calvinists, like the Pharisees, claim to "see" before they believe -- regeneration before knowing anything to have faith in or repent of. But Jesus says if you say you see (spiritual things while your fellows, the non-elect, cannot), you are blind. But if you will come to Jesus blind, you will see.

40 And some of the [Calvinists ] which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." Calvinists have said time and again that their eyes were opened before they even heard the word of God or the gospel --- they somehow didn't need any change, any healing, before they could understand spiritual truth. Jesus simple answer to that is, "I can't save you. Come back when you realize you are blinded by sin and by men's (the Pharisees) theologies."

Free willers, on the other hand, came blind to Jesus. But when we obeyed His command to believe and receive, then we, indeed, did see! (read 1Cor 2 again folks).

Is anyone offended yet? Tell me you were just as blind as the rest of us unregenerate sinners before you heard the word, the gospel of your salvation! Don't go flaunting your sight was why you were saved and the next man not. Jesus said that if you claimed to see then, then you are blind still.

I don't like to keep harping on this issue but don't you see that it is contrary to salvation to claim regeneration before you repent. It basically puts you into the embarrassing situation of having only "sorrow of the world," 2Cor 7:10.

1Cor 4:14 -- "I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers..." In fact, you have only One Father and He speaks quite well for Himself.

skypair

 

Hi watchman :wavey:

In a way, I see Calvinists as believing they are "God's special people" -- the "elect" -- don't you?? They adhere to certain doctrines or tenets.

Now the Pharisees had works, yes -- but some Calvinists have "Lordship Salvation" as "proof" of their relationship with God, right? And it is "perserverance [works seen in the flesh] of the saints," not "PRESERVATION [Spirit-kept salvation] of the saints," that their theology admits to. I mean, the "P" could have just as easily been for "preservation" but they chose "perserverance" (which is their understanding of it) instead.

But let's face it -- they do it in the name of Christ. But the Pharisees did what they did in the name of God. I don't see much difference there either.

I'd like to hear where you continue to disagree with these thoughts. Isn't this a fair comparison?

skypair

 

There are 2 points I would make:

1) You are not a "spiritual man/woman" at all until you are saved because you have not been quickened/reborn/revived by the Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit before salvation is to CONVICT the spirits of the ones whose SOULS are dead from sin (John 16:8 -- He reproves the WORLD) . The unregenerate SPIRIT in man is NOT dead -- it thinks and makes decisions every day! It is the CONSCIENCE that is "dead."

2) Your use of 1Cr 2:14 improperly a) because even saved individuals have some "natural man" left in them and if they live according to the flesh, they will not receive the things of the Spirit. We say that such people have either "grieved," "quenched," or "denied the Spirit." I'm sure you have heard these terms and can apply them.

b) 1Cr 2:14 is ONLY possible for SAVED -- "perfect" (2:6) -- individuals. "Spiritual man" is NOT possible of an unbeliever.

There's a lot of theology there, Amy, and I know you are trying to understand things in a new light. Please try to follow my line of thinking and pls ask questions where you don't agree. :applause:

skypair

 

Calvinism's claim is that the "elect" can "see" spiritually before they hear the gospel so that they DO hear it effecaciously when they are called. The Pharisees claimed that they could "see" spiritually and didn't need to hear Christ.

If you claim the ability to "see" spiritually so that you are able recognize truth without being saved first, you are actually "spiritually blind" according to Jesus.

Look at Nicodemus in John 3. In that conversation, he didn't know which end was up! He was "flailing" spiritually. BUT he wasn't rejecting. When he came to believe, then he could counter his fellow Pharisees to the point that they detected that he, too, believed and followed Jesus! You just CANNOT keep insisting that you see spiritually before you are saved. To do so is merely to misinterpret scripture.

skypair

 

Sure! :type: I am 61 next week. Those who have influenced my walk most are the Holy Spirit and then in this order probably Pastor Noe (led me to the Lord -- love the coincidence of that name!), Dr. Adrian Rogers, J. Vernon McGee, Tim LaHaye (I love to study prophecy and there are a host of similar authors - Clarence Larkin, Van Impe, Pentecost, Walvoord), Dr. Bobby Moore, Dr. Jack Hyles, Charles Stanley.

I pretty much try to "keep it real" but I am always drawn to Sproul's works as he handles specific doctrines in each book one at a time.

skypair

 

Dr. Bob, Jarthur -- I have made it abundantly clear in all other places, even to the point of referring to their testimonies, that all the Calvinists I know here have come by salvation in via "free will" but now have followed after a different scheme of things.

Again, I apologize for not making the obligatory remark "present company excluded." I assumed that my last remark in the OP (which I bolded) showed what the real concern was -- not for anyone's salvation but for their being led astray. Organized Calvinism, like Catholicism, has "shepherds" that are leading the flock astray.

skypair

 

Yes, Bob. There's only one major difference --- they give people the notion that they are saved/regenerated/elect if the understand the gospel, recite a creed and the Lord's Prayer every Sunday, and join the church.

They do not have invitations to salvation -- it would be contradictory to say there is some "work" you can do to receive salvation and thereby "command God to give it to you." Instead people sit in their pews week after week trying to do what is Christian" and, I've seen it, trying to put on a good face. The best you can hope for is that you are elect or come to believe you are elect (and personally, I am offended by such a gospel). So there you have it.

skypair