I thought this quote from Wesley...

[Jarthur001]

Ah yes, I have heard this verse. And the preaching of the gospel is "foolishness" to the Jews and Gentiles, too, isn't it. But to the "called," it is the "power of God" and the "wisdom of God," 1Cor 1:23. OK, I'll buy that. I say that just like I say, "I'll take that golf shot" (as if I had a choice :laugh

But the passage also suggests that it is the power of God and wisdom of God only if it is heard via preaching, no? IOW, it doesn't become power or wisdom unless it is heard, understood, and believed, correct? And you are saying that there is some chemical or metaphysical explanation for some hearing, understanding, and believing?

skypair

The context of 1 Cor 1:23 is clear. In fact it is self-contained.

natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God...
natural man receiveth not the things...
natural man receiveth not...
natural man...
natural man
natural man

It is clear and there is no need to change the meaning.

 

[skypair]

The context of 1 Cor 1:23 is clear. In fact it is self-contained.

natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God...
natural man receiveth not the things...
natural man receiveth not...
natural man...
natural man
natural man

It is clear and there is no need to change the meaning.

Um, James. That's not 1Cor 23 that you quoted.

It's 1Cor 2:14. It's the end of the chapter where Paul said in 2:6 that he only offered the "things of God" to the "perfect" -- the already saved. There is something that the 'natural man' could receive though. It's the gospel.

Now I can see where you get the notion of regeneration "falls out of the sky," though. I don't know how many times I've heard the phrase "born from above" from John 3 as if Jesus didn't go on and tell Nicodemus what causes it -- "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

I mean, wouldn't you think that these people would say, "Does Jesus mean I'm not going to perish in my first born, natural body? Or .... no. Wait! He means I'm not going to die in my new-born, second-born SPIRIT! Which I get AFTER I believe!"

Jesus didn't present it this way -- 'He should not perish and so he shall believe" -- did He.

I guess every fiber of my being tells me that "mind changing" is an intellectual process that the one with the mind and the original views has to be involved in or it won't happen. That's why I asked you about the "chemical" or "metaphysical" possibilities. But I've never changed my mind without having new information. And I've never discerned myself having a change of mind/heart before I actually accepted that information. Just like when you and I debate -- you don't accept what I say and so you don't change your mind/repent. :tear:

But I have had one Calvinist tell me that a baby can be "born again" at baptism IF the preacher says the right words (perhaps gospel words; I don't know)over the infant. That, to me, would be metaphysical.

Hope it's not a "brain cramp" keeping you from answering my questions. :laugh: I hope there are some logical responses to them from your POV.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Um, James. That's not 1Cor 23 that you quoted.

It's 1Cor 2:14. It's the end of the chapter where Paul said in 2:6 that he only offered the "things of God" to the "perfect" -- the already saved. There is something that the 'natural man' could receive though. It's the gospel.

r

Right you are. It is 1Cor 2:14 as I posted before.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1280815&postcount=9

You said..

There is something that the 'natural man' could receive though. It's the gospel.

Sky...
I think I'll stick with the Bible on this.
natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God...

The gospel is the good news of God. (Romans 1)

Then how can one believe?

John 3..ye must be born again. When you are born again...you can then understand.

 

[skypair]

James,

You must have been a wiz at rote memorization when you were a kid, eh?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Though I do not agree with everything Wesley said it does not take away from the fact that God used him and he walked as believer a believer should.

Rip : If you would kindly type in English it would be appreciated.Wesley's "walk"is not something any believer should emulate.

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He honored (sic) by both his friends and theological opponents alike for his godly walk.

Rip : You aren't familiar with Church History,are you?But you got it partly right.His friends then and now have always defended him.
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I think 'that' is gets your goat Rippon, but no matter how often or extreme you try to slander his name he will always be remembered as God-fearing man who loved the Lord and devoted himself to him by both Calvinists and Non's alike.

Rip : I do not slander his name;he specialized in doing just that with Toplady,Rowland Hill and others in his time.

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He is as godly a man as Whitefield, Spurgeon, Edwards, and Toplady.

Rip:Wrong again Allan.