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I Would Like to Opine Regarding Calvinism that...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Oct 16, 2006.

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  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    ... it is a "sanctification model" just like Catholicism.

    That is, it is presumed by the Reform/Calvin model that infant baptism saves, at least from original sin.

    It is also presumed that one cannot "do" anything to save oneself such as pray a prayer of repentance and receive Christ. Especially onerous to most Reform/Calvinists is the idea of praying a sinner's prayer or walking an aisle in testimony of a decision to be saved.

    They presume that the "elect" are already indwelt with the Holy Spirit/regenerated so that they may "hear" the truth and "believe." But again, once the believe, they're "in" -- election is "unconditional" (not reliant on any decision or act on their part).

    This is how they run a church -- members are presumed to believe and thus be elect and thus be on the road to sanctification which they accordingly do offer in their sermons.

    And sanctification is actually good. Jesus told the Jews to obey the Pharisees in practice of their faith unto sanctification even though the Pharisees were not themselves saved! Indeed, sanctifying oneself through scriptural obedience always has good effects!

    But the "salvation model" is this (1Cor 15:1-4) --- to RECEIVE and STAND in the gospel. Notice the word is not "believe" but "receive." So if you are practicing sanctification before salvation, you are sanctifying total depravity.

    Well, this has been the traditional fall of all Godly religions so far -- Judaism and its Pharisees, Catholicism and its self-aggrandizing leadership, and now Reform/Calvinism. And the result? None of their members knows for sure that they are saved/elect until they die. Salvation isn't their decision to make AND works are considered the only evidence. They are dependent on what the church defines as good works so they may display the salvation they can only hope they have.

    Consider Jas 2. "Faith without works is dead." Accordingly, faith without sanctification is dead -- but so is sanctification without faith, right? Therefore, Jas 2:21-22 -- "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works [sanctification] was faith made perfect?"

    See, none of them recognize this -- that faith = salvation and works = sanctification. They ALL want to throw works into the mix because they need proof of salvation which otherwise, they have no control over. And they have no control because they ignore the "salvation model" that scripture gives us.

    It's probably alright for a saved person to join a Reform/Calvinist church. They'll be fed sanctification --- slowly. But woe to the lost who stumble in and "join."

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Oct 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2006
  2. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    You're just venting, right? You can't actually believe some of those things, can you? Calvinists presume that the members of their church are saved? Huh??

    Infant baptism saves? Huh???

    The elect are already indwelt by the Holy Spirit? What???

    Calvinists don't have assurance of salvation? Ouch!!!!????

    I've got to spend more time with the Calvinist strawman - he's really getting some strange ideas lately.
     
    #2 J.D., Oct 16, 2006
  3. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    I'm no calvinist, but your ideas of what Calvinists believe is whacked.
     
    #3 Tom Bryant, Oct 16, 2006
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I would like to opine that this is very far from the truth, beginning with your first assertion regarding infant baptism.

    But nice job of using the word "opine." That is what got me to look at this thread.
     
    #4 Pastor Larry, Oct 16, 2006
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I looked to see if this bloke was a pastor. Thankfully not, but he is a pilot and I think I just gave up flying.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #5 Jim1999, Oct 16, 2006
  6. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    :eek: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
    #6 EdSutton, Oct 16, 2006
  7. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Acually. skypair is much closer than many of you think, in some, not all, of what he is saying.

    Especially as to the idea of subtly "sneaking in" works.

    Think about what he is saying.

    Before you jump off the diving board into the pool, consider that just because you see light playing off the surface of the water, and know that there is water in the pool, that does not automatically make the depth safe for diving.

    Ed
     
    #7 EdSutton, Oct 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2006
  8. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    This couldnt happen. First of all one doesnt come to our church, lost, and join the church!
    He would be truly blest however to be present as he would hear a clear presentation of the gospel, great exegesis of God's word, and what he has to look forward to if he should decline the offer!
    Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences! 2 Cor. 5:11
     
    #8 2BHizown, Oct 16, 2006
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Maybe just deep enough to be murky!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #9 Jim1999, Oct 16, 2006
  10. Not_hard_to_find

    Not_hard_to_find Member
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    One straightforward, yes or no question. No need for dissertation. Just a Calvinist's answer.

    Can one elected decline the offer?
     
    #10 Not_hard_to_find, Oct 16, 2006
  11. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Or cause one to break their neck on hitting bottom.

    Ed
     
    #11 EdSutton, Oct 16, 2006
  12. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Well I replied with no, but it said my answer was too short. Read John 6:37
     
    #12 reformedbeliever, Oct 16, 2006
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I don't swim! I need a floatation device to walk over puddles.......:laugh:

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #13 Jim1999, Oct 16, 2006
  14. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    No, but that's what the "I" in TULIP is about, not the "U".
     
    #14 whatever, Oct 17, 2006
  15. Not_hard_to_find

    Not_hard_to_find Member
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    Thank you.
     
    #15 Not_hard_to_find, Oct 17, 2006
  16. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    Consider this thread, the responses, to one who none of us know the state of the heart.

    What we first read was mostly error!

    What we then saw as responses were mostly ridicule, sarcasm!

    This happens too often here, where an opportunity to confront in love and make an effort to clarify sound doctrine and to share truth as God would have us to is lost, while we enjoy our own repartee!

    Is this the real purpose of this board?
    I know, I know, I'm just an old one who has no humor. No, actually thats not true. I'm just so much closer to the exit that I'm aware of the important!
     
    #16 2BHizown, Oct 17, 2006
  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Y'all who think you are Calvinist Baptists,

    I spend more time on another board inhabited more by strong Calvinist/Reform types. They would "certify" every one of those assertions I made on their behalf.

    1) Some kind of salvation for infants through baptism (like RCC),

    2) regeneration/indwelling by the Spirit BEFORE faith ( thus enabling one to believe),

    3) claims that we can do nothing to be saved (going even so far as to imply fate vs. free will in every event that happens in this world. Makes me wonder whether we are "able" do anything about any situation we face in life.),

    4) decry that a "decision" we make following belief in the gospel saves us (in fact, claim that to believe is to have faith and both are "gifts" of God),

    5) claim that we don't choose God, He chooses us (ergo, totally negating the "salvation model" given in 1Cor 15:1-4).

    Now I know as well that some of you THINK you are Calvinists without having investigated any of this. Some may have even taken "Systematic Theology" courses (which used to be called "Reform Dogma" where "dogma is defined as unverifiable beliefs). Believe me, if you are saved, you're not going to pay attention too much to how they say you got there. But if these assertions of mine are correct, I think you would see that there never can be a point of decision/salvation without denying Calvinism/Reform theology. And so what is left is a "sanctification model" that only assumes that those being sanctified are saved.

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, Oct 17, 2006
  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I am not a Calvinist but I would be interested in knowing the name of this other board you visit. Is it a presbytarian board?

    While I do agree that Calvinism CAN go into fatalism (hyper-Calvinism), many do not.

    I actually like the way Spurgeon stated it with regard to Hypers view;
    from the 1859 sermon by Charles Spurgeon entitled JACOB AND ESAU.

     
    #18 Allan, Oct 17, 2006
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Without going back adn studying the original post, I think you have changed some of the assertions here

    I don't know of any Calvinist who holds to baptismal regeneration which is what the RCC does. Most Calvinists hold that baptism is a "sign of the covenant," not an act of salvation. You would do well to clarify what these other people say. Ask them if they believe in "some kind of salvation for infants through baptism (like RCC)." My bet is that they will all deny it.

    This is true that most believe this.

    This is a misrepresentation. We can't do anythign to be saved. Scripture is clear about that. Most Calvinists beleive in "duty faith," that is, that all must believe to be saved.

    This is typically true, but your representation of it here is decided negative. Faith and repentance are both gifts of God, out of his grace. They do lead to salvation, but for most, they follow regeneration. Be careful not to confuse terms here. Salvation, in the NT, is a broad word that refers to the whole work of God in redemption.

    Am I unaware of any conflict with 1 Cor 15:1-4 in this. We choose God only because he has chosen us.

    Non sequitur. There is a point of decision/salvation in Calvinism.

    Well, this is a non sequitur as well. Those who are being sanctified are saved. God doesn't sanctify unsaved people.
     
    #19 Pastor Larry, Oct 17, 2006
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Wow

    To the OP:

    That sure is some weird wiggy mojo you described. I don't know what it's called, but it sure isn't Calvinism.
     
    #20 npetreley, Oct 17, 2006
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