If a christian slides back then does this prove he never was a christian?

[xdisciplex]

I am just listening to a sermon and the speaker quotes Paul who says we shall examine ourselves wether we are in the faith. He says if he knew a believer who walked with God for a few years and read the bible and showed interest and then slides back and starts to enjoy sin then he would not tell him that he is beginning to live like an unbeliever but that it is very well possible that he never knew him!
He said if a work of God does not continue it never was a work of God. This means we all might fall off and then realize that we never were the real deal. Does this not sound totally calvinistic? Because as far as I know calvinists also cannot know if they are really saved and chosen or not they can only go on and hope that they don't fall off.
Do you agree with this? But if you can walk with God and still there is a possibility that you never knew him then you also can never feel saved! Let's say you have been a christian for 10 years and done everything right how do you know that you will not fall off next year? How do you know that you might not slide back and this proves you never knew him?
This means that basically none of us can know wether he's the real deal unless he really makes it to heaven.
He also said that some people tell him they just know that they are believers, they know it in their hearts. But he said the bible says that the heart is deceitfully wicked.
But Romans says if you confess in your mouth and believe in your heart!
This confuses me. If the heart is wicked then why does Romans emphasize believing in your heart? And what does the bible even mean with heart? Or mind? Our emotions? What is the heart in the bible?
Oh boy, somehow it's like no matter who you listen to you always get different opinions and become upset over things because one christian says this the other one says that....
If being saved can ONLY be seen on your works then this basically means that you become a slave to doing good works because you think: If I stop doing good works it shows I'm not saved, this means I have to keep doing good works....
Isn't this unlogical? Either you are saved or you aren't. If you are not saved then also doing good works in order to prove to yourself that you are saved will not get you saved.
If a person is not really saved and hears this message then this person might become scared and start doing good works to prove to herself she is saved and when she does the good works she will think: Yes, I am saved.
Isn't this also a danger?
But with all the "are you really saved?" talk today how can you even be relaxed as a christian? It's like you constantly have to be worried and concerned about your salvation, this isn't fun. I thought His burden is light but this is not light! This is totally depressing. :tear:

 

[J. Jump]

Works have nothing to do with your eternal salvation. So if you don't have any works after you are saved that doesn't prove nor disprove your salvation, because eternal salvation is not based upon the person's works, but the works of Christ.

 

[xdisciplex]

Works have nothing to do with your eternal salvation. So if you don't have any works after you are saved that doesn't prove nor disprove your salvation, because eternal salvation is not based upon the person's works, but the works of Christ.

But faith without works is dead.

But I also don't want to get into this thinking that I have to do good works in order to prove that I am saved, then you become a slave to good works and think: "I haven't read the bible in 1 week, if I go on like this then I'm not saved, this means I have to read the bible to show I am saved..."

 

[Hope of Glory]

"Faith", which is a noun, has to do with how you live your life after you are saved.

 

[genesis12]

No. Backsliding proves that you chose sin instead of fellowship.

 

[xdisciplex]

Hmmm...
Maybe this guy is a bit too radical, I don't know. I'm talking about this preacher here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=5220621750

 

[genesis12]

Well, this is posted in his statement of beliefs at his website.........

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS. Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is what the Bible says -- JJ may not like it - but it is instructive to the rest.

Saved walk “Contrasted” to the enslaved-to-sin walk defined in Romans 2

Rom 2
7 to those who [b]by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [/b]
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and [b]do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. [/B]
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and [b]peace to everyone who does good[/b], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 8

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin[/b], He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Rom 2

:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore the “loss of salvation” is seen whenever that state of salvation is explicitly seen to be revoked, when our acceptance and peace with God is denied by God.

#1. Turned over to Satan 1 Tim 1
#2. A certain terrifying expectation of Judgment to come – Heb 10
#3. Forgiveness revoked Matt 18 – old massive debt is now put back on us.
#4. Christ denying us 2Tim 2
#5. The shipwreck of faith 1 Tim 1
#6. Impossible to be renewed again having been partakers of the Holy Spirit Heb 6
Bound up to be burned – John 15, Heb 6
#7. Enslaved to sin again – as a dog that returns to its vomit



Turned over to Satan – in the shipwreck of faith

1Tim 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them[/b] you fight the good fight,
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be [b]taught not to blaspheme.

Denied by Christ instead of His “confessing us before God and His angels” –


[quote]2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/B] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/B]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
[/quote]

Soul bound by sin and under the condemnation of death

James 5

19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back[/b], let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Forgiveness revoked –

Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

Matt 18 <[

b]Forgiveness Revoked!>

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5

Gal 5

4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

 

[webdog]

But faith without works is dead.

A car without a battery is dead, too. It's still a car.

 

[xdisciplex]

Hmmm...
but even if you can backslide then the problem still is this.
I think that listening to such a message will scare christians into doing good works to prove they are saved. But what if somebody really was not saved and then starts doing good works and pray more and so on? Will he get saved later on?
To me this sounds a bit like:

Apes eat bananas. > If I start eating a lot of bananas then this proves I'm an ape.

Real,saved christians do good works > If I start doing good works then this proves that I'm saved.

I think this isn't logical.
This is like saying this here:

Apes eat bananas > If an ape stops eating bananas he is no longer an ape or maybe he was never a real ape.

This is how this guy thinks. He says that real christians cannot backslide, if a christian slides back he simply wasn't a christian.
Isn't this a bit too easy?

 

[J. Jump]

You are understanding the idea that once a Christian always a Christian, because it's not based on what you did, what you are doing or what you will do. It is solely based on what Someone else did on your behalf. And if it is entirely based on Someone else's works then how can you become unsaved, because that Someone certainly hasn't changed His works to make it so.

 

[gekko]

hahaha. i read the title of this... and had to chuckle a little. sorry bout that.

umm... what you call "backsliders" are essentially false converts as displayed in the parable of the sower. (stony ground hearer.)

for one to backslide - they need to be backsliding from somewhere. somewhere "forward" - a person who has slidden forward desires not to slide back. and therefore clings to the savior so that a "backsliding" situation does not occur. if one does not cling to the savior - they will backslide. from what though? if they havn't clung to the savior - they havn't slid forward.

so. there is not such thing as a "backslider" because they havn't slid forward in the first place.

rather - call them false converts. for that is much more biblical then "backslider"
---

oooh is J.Jump gonna jump all over this one! (pun intended)

 

[Marcia]

I do believe there are backslidden Christians. Christians do fall into sin and sometimes get their conscience seared. After all, God does not force us to keep resisting temptation. And some believers stay in it awhile. But then the conviction and misery is too much for them and they repent and come back. I've known and seen several like this - have heard their testimonies.

I do agree sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between a backslidden Christian and a false convert, but after a few years, if the person has not repented and is going merrily along their way, you can maybe guess they are not a believer.

But it's not up to us to decide who is which one unless we are called to counsel that person, then we need to try to figure it out as much as possible. Jesus said to let the tares grow up with the wheat and he would send the reapers to separate them. Not us.

 

[Rooselk]

I think Marcia has called it about right. But since we do not know the hearts of individuals we cannot really know whether or not a person is a backslider or one that never had faith.

 

[gekko]

it's hard to tell the difference between a backslidden Christian and a false convert,

umm... that's because they're the same thing...

 

[Marcia]

umm... that's because they're the same thing...

In your opinion, gekko. :tongue3:

 

[music4Him]

Well there is something I have a problem with...
Something I was attacked with about a month ago. Some people have it in their minds of how a Christian is suppost to dress and act and behave. (No smoking, no losing temper, no wearing shorts or sleveless shirts... ect) Some of these people want to set a standard for Christain living for others to live by but won't live by thier rules. All I know is that today I'm not where I used to be and praise the Lord I'm no longer under bondage, because Jesus set me free! Although I'm not where I think I ought to be in my Christain walk... Paul summed it up pretty well.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So if I see someone who is struggling with life... its easier to pray for them than to judge them. :flower:

 

[Nicholas25]

No, it just means they need to repent of their sins.