If Christ died for Judas just as He did for Peter

[Ian Major]

Question: If Christ died for Judas just as He did for Peter, you have to say He bore Judas' sins in His own body on the tree. That Judas' sins were imputed to Him. What then will Judas be punished for? Or will God punish Judas for the same sins He punished Christ for?

In Him

Ian

 

[Skandelon]

The effects of Christ's death is timeless. Whether you believe the sins of all non-believers were placed upon the cross with Christ or not we can all agree that Christ's atonement is only effective for those who do believe. Exactly how that works is not made perfectly clear which is evident in the fact that even Calvinists can't agree on the subject. I wonder if its even worth debating?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ian;
The sin that is imputed to Judas was rejection it is the unforgivable sin because it is done unto death. If one accepts Christ then all of His sins are forgiven even his previous rejection because, it wasn't unto death.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Ian Major]

Skandelon said
The effects of Christ's death is timeless. Whether you believe the sins of all non-believers were placed upon the cross with Christ or not we can all agree that Christ's atonement is only effective for those who do believe. Exactly how that works is not made perfectly clear which is evident in the fact that even Calvinists can't agree on the subject. I wonder if its even worth debating?

It is worth debating because it clarifies what holding to a universal atonement entails. Have Arminian brothers the stomach to face up to where their theology leads them?

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

ILUVLIGHT said
The sin that is imputed to Judas was rejection it is the unforgivable sin because it is done unto death. If one accepts Christ then all of His sins are forgiven even his previous rejection because, it wasn't unto death.

Are you saying Christ did not bear all Judas' sins in His own body on the tree? Or are you saying he did bear them all, except the one of rejection? Or what? I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.

In Him

Ian

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ian Major:

It is worth debating because it clarifies what holding to a universal atonement entails. Have Arminian brothers the stomach to face up to where their theology leads them?

But you don't have to hold to a "universal atonement" to be an Arminian. Nor do you have to be against it to be a Calvinists.

 

[psr.2]

1 Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Christ died for all. Therefore he is potentially the Saviour for all. Only those who call on him to be saved receive him as Saviour.

 

[Johnv]

Christ died for all. Judas, in Laden, Hitler, Peter, Paul, Mary, and Puff the Magic Dragon. Okay, maybe not Puff.

 

[amixedupmom]

Originally posted by Ian Major:
Question: If Christ died for Judas just as He did for Peter, you have to say He bore Judas' sins in His own body on the tree. That Judas' sins were imputed to Him. What then will Judas be punished for? Or will God punish Judas for the same sins He punished Christ for?

In Him

Ian

-tilts head-

Ian, you do relize that Judas was a saved man who backslid correct? You do realize that salvation is eternal and once you have it, it can never be taken from you? You also do realize that umm, we are all held accountable for what we do, and Christ paid the price for us all ?

 

[amixedupmom]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Christ died for all. Judas, in Laden, Hitler, Peter, Paul, Mary, and Puff the Magic Dragon. Okay, maybe not Puff.

LOL he died for puff too

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by psr.2:
1 Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Therefore he is potentially the Saviour for all.

The Bible never calls Christ Jesus a "potential Savior". The Bible calls Christ Jesus the "Savior of all men". There's nothing merely potential about it.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ian;

Are you saying Christ did not bear all Judas' sins in His own body on the tree? Or are you saying he did bear them all, except the one of rejection? Or what? I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.

My explanation of my last comment; Judas was never forgiven for all His sins. Christ hadn't paid for them yet. No where did I read that any of the disciples ever offered sacrifice which was still the Law until Christ paid for them. In other words there was no blood sacrifice as far as we know when he killed himself. Not only this but even if he was forgiven he wasn't converted because of his unforgivable sin of rejection. Today man goes to hell for unrepentant sin, that unrepentant sin is the rejection of Christ. The person who rejects Christ has built his house upon the earth and when the flood came his house fell. Only the rejection of Christ will send you to hell. Because if you accept him your sins are forgiven. The nice thing is no matter what the sins are, so long as you do not reject him up to the point of death. You can be saved.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[psr.2]

quote;
The Bible never calls Christ Jesus a "potential Savior". The Bible calls Christ Jesus the "Savior of all men". There's nothing merely potential about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong.
Potential= Possible but not actual. Having capacity for existence but not yet existing.

Until a person receives Christ as their Saviour he is not their Saviour. He is potentially their Saviour.

 

[KenH]

Not according to the Bible. Have you read the verse listed earlier in this thread? "who is the Savior of all men".

 

[psr.2]

quote;
Ian, you do relize that Judas was a saved man who backslid correct? You do realize that salvation is eternal and once you have it, it can never be taken from you? You also do realize that umm, we are all held accountable for what we do, and Christ paid the price for us all ?

wrong
Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Not possible for a saved man.

John6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

"is a devil" not saved

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

"go to his own place" Do a study on that phrase and you will see it is hell.

 

[psr.2]

Ken, I am the one who posted the verse. "specially of those who believe." He is the Saviour of all men. Only those who receive him are saved.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ian Major:
Question: If Christ died for Judas just as He did for Peter, you have to say He bore Judas' sins in His own body on the tree. That Judas' sins were imputed to Him. What then will Judas be punished for? Or will God punish Judas for the same sins He punished Christ for?

Correct - Judas pays for his own sins and So did Christ.

The flaw in Calvinism is that it views God as the great banker "getting paid for sins". But monetary economy is not the model for salvation - rather substitutionary atonement is. God pays "in suffering" what is owed "in suffering" by mankind for sin. So God is not "getting paid" He is "paying".

Neither is Satan "getting paid"

When a murderer is executed the family is not "repaid" for the loss of their loved one. They are not "even". Their loss "remains". This is the form of "payment" that sin incurrs.

In 1John 2:1-2 we find that Christ is the "Atoning SACRIFICE" for our sins and Not ours only but for those of the Whole World!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Lea:
You do realize that salvation is eternal and once you have it, it can never be taken from you?

I am Arminian - I see that Adam fell - so of course I don't believe that a saved child of God "can not choose to fall".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ian Major]

Skandelon said
But you don't have to hold to a "universal atonement" to be an Arminian. Nor do you have to be against it to be a Calvinists.

I knew of 4-point Calvinists, and the question applies to them also. But I was unaware of Limited Atonement Arminians. Do they base their limitation on God's forseen choice, or what? Very interesting.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Friends

The question is not 'Did Christ die for all without exception'. It explores beyond that, asking what the unsaved dead will be judged for. If you hold to universal atonement, you must account for their punishment in hell.

In Him

Ian