If election is unconditional why would it be more difficult for the rich to be saved?

Doesn't true Calvinism state that predestination doesn't do violence to man's free will? Isn't man allowed free will and the mystery of God is something we must trust. I do think this is a great question though.

 

Because they are hindrances....all who perish have an inordinate love of sin,sometimes wealth allows people to get lost in "the good life"...rather than laboring under a burden of sin....they cannot get enough of it.

Just as God ordains the means of grace.....there are means that keep people in bondage....it is not two seperate issues. Those who perish remain carnally minded...they never are set free from it.:thumbs:

 

Because God purposed it.

Do you deny that anything happens which God did not always intend to happen?

Who could? Such denial would state that the eternal purposes of God are thwarted millions of times every day.

 

Skandelon that is a good point and one of many against unconditional election with no volition.

 

Election? Unconditional.

Salvation? Conditional.

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

We have here a picture above of God's Sovereignty and choice in election and His 0plan to confound the wise, the noble &c. You can include the rich, as they fit within this picture above perfectly. God has chosen, and this election is unconditional, and we see what and whom God has chosen for His Glory.

Good thing God said not many, instead of not any, forthere are those who are rich that He has elected. Salvation is conditional upon whether one is His elect/chosen.

 

Yes, how dare Luke2427 presume his position proven, when you practice the same thing and must be the only one justifiable in doing so.

I think he addressed your OP and dissolved it rather handily, and the question being begged is where is your answer to it without this disparaging response?

All things according to His purpose. This is also in election.

 

How’s that?!? By beating the Calvinist drum: God is Deterministically Sovereign!….God is Deterministically Sovereign!…Do you deny it?...Do you deny it?...To do so denies God’s Sovereignty!...To do so denies God’s Sovereignty!...

Oh yeah baby!!! “Now, if you what more Scandelon, we can turn into a personal conflict!” “Ugg, we Calvinist got more than one drum to beat on to deal with your kind of premise!”

BOOM, BOOM, BOOM: According to His purpose!…According to His purpose!…God is Deterministically Sovereign!…God is Deterministically Sovereign!….

:smilewinkgrin:

 

Sorry, Scandelon. :tonofbricks:I thought my illustration might help make it more clear. :BangHead:

 

No need to falsely paint me as not being familiar with debate. More derogatory nonsense. You're again being personally disparaging. Yet, all you have to say is it wasn't meant then it's all good. No need to try and belittle another with your accusations.

"Like a madman who throws Firebrands, arrows and death, So is the man who deceives his neighbor, And says, "Was I not joking?" Proverbs 26:18-19

...except for the fact I for one am not deceived.

Yes, you're just joking, and/or there are never any intentions when you get personal. Would you allow this grace to extend to others as to yourself?(excluding those who sympathize with your theology) Not so much.

- Peace

 

One more thing, Jesus didn't say it was "more difficult" for the rich to be saved (than others?) as you say in your OP:

Mat_19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_19:24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mat_27:57 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus.

Mar_10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I don't see here Jesus saying it is more difficult for them than anyone else to be saved. I think you missed His point here.

Jesus was making a point with this illustration, and it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Is there a passage that says it more difficult for the rich to be saved than anyone else? This is your implication by the stated OP, it definitely implues it is more difficult for them than others.

If you attempt to say there are, and show me what he must "do" by selling all he has, then you're preaching works salvation in that view, and again missing the point. I'm certain you don't believe in works based salvation.

 

These are means to salvation ,or damnation...we are not robots, or puppets as AIC likes to say.....either sign given is a great blessing...or a great curse.
To whom much is given, much is required.

 

All you need to do is read on a couple of verses. 'With men it is impossible, but not for God; for with God all things are possible' (Mark 10:27). If it were up to man, no rich person would ever be saved. But praise God for irresistible grace, He can save even rich folks like you and me. :godisgood:

Steve

 

The word 'saved' [sozo] in this context is referring to admission to the benefits of the Kingdom of God, not to the eternal state of the soul, i.e., BEFORE one can see the kingdom of God one must be born from above. Sozo, in this passage, is not synonymous with the birth from above or the acquisition of the free gift of eternal life.

Reference Jn 3:21: “But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.” Take note, this young man ran to Christ, and kneeled to Him, and Christ loved him; Edersheim says, “He loved him - as He loves those that are His own”. And when this young man replies, “Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth”, there's no reason to question his sincerity, or the truthfulness of it, Christ didn't.

Christ said to him, “If thou wouldest be perfect [not acquire eternal life], go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”

Again, Edersheim sheds light on this: “We need scarcely here recall the almost extravagant language in which Rabbinism describes the miseries of poverty; Many sayings might here be quoted. It was worse than all the plagues of Egypt put together (Babha B. 116 a); than all other miseries (Betsah 32 b); the worst affliction that could befall a man (Shem. R. 31).] we can understand his feelings without that.....Rabbinism had never asked this; if it demanded almsgiving, it was in odious boastfulness; To make a merit of giving up riches for Christ is, surely, the Satanic caricature of the meaning of His teaching.] while it was declared even unlawful to give away all one's possessions [a Arach. viii.4.], at most, only a fifth of them might be dedicated. [b Kethub. 50 a.]”

In other words, this young man not only loved his riches, but he had been taught all his life that it was unlawful to give all his riches away.

It doesn't matter with the Spirit of God, He Blows where He wills.

Of course not.

"The Calvinistic system" is in agreement with Christ, “With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.”