If...Then...Else

[thegospelgeek]

My question stems from the third chapter of the book of Daniel. When the three Hebrews addressed the King in verses 17 and 18. Were they saying;

If you throw us in the fire God will deliver us, and if you don't throw us into the fire we will not bow to worship you?

or are they saying

If you throw us into the fire God can deliver us, but if he does not deliver us we will not worship you?

(Dan 3:17) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

(Dan 3:18) But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

I have always thought that the IF statement went with God delivering them but my Brother In-law said he thinks it goes with being thrown into the fire. After going back and reading the verses, I not 100% convienced either way. Which is correct and why?

I'm not sure which forum this belongs in so if a Mod want's to move it, go ahead.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

What does the "it" refer to?

 

[thegospelgeek]

What does the "it" refer to?

That is the $1,000,000 dollar question. With "it" being a pronoun does it reference the event most previously stated of does it reference the same event as the previous use of "it".

I'm an engineer not a linguist so bear with me. Is the statement;

IF (throw in fire) Then
IF NOT( God delivers) then
"we will not bow"
End If
End If


or is it

IF (throw in fire) Then
God delivers
Else
"we will not bow"
End If

Either is logically correct. But as I stated I am not a linguist so i am asking are both linguistically correct and why?

 

[Jim1999]

Try the simplest meaning:

Regardless of which happens, you will not be worshipped, and I will be in God's hands.

Hebrew of the day put into simple English of to-day.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[thegospelgeek]

Try the simplest meaning:

Regardless of which happens, you will not be worshipped, and I will be in God's hands.

Hebrew of the day put into simple English of to-day.

Cheers,

Jim

I do not see where one meaning is simpler or more literal than the other. But there are a couple of reasons I am asking.

First. Does one interpetation diminish the faith of these in God? Are they saying "God can deliver us" or "God will deliver us". Is there a difference between the two. WOF people like to say the later as if usingb the word can allows for a "Lack of faith" and a way out. I know the doctrine to be false, but I like to present facts not opinion.

Second and more important to me is what is the proper way of determining the proper answer to a question of this type. Is there some rule of grammar or something in the original text that I am not aware of?

 

[just-want-peace]

First. Does one interpetation diminish the faith of these in God? Are they saying "God can deliver us" or "God will deliver us". Is there a difference between the two. WOF people like to say the later as if usingb the word can allows for a "Lack of faith" and a way out. I know the doctrine to be false, but I like to present facts not opinion.

Don't see that it makes any difference from a faith standpoint.

As a Christian, I totally believe that God CAN deliver me from heart problems, but I also know that for whatever reason He may choose to not do so.

My faith is in Him, not what He does re: my heart, so I see no difference in the two applications.

Incidentally, IMNSHO, to say that it is a lack of faith should He NOT do what I want (God will deliver us) is nothing more than saying that God is my personal miracle-worker (GENIE, if you will) subject to my beck and call! (I think Job may differ with this philosophy!)

This idea smacks of the "Name it, Claim it" gospel, which is anything BUT the Gospel.!

 

[Aaron]

My question stems from the third chapter of the book of Daniel. When the three Hebrews addressed the King in verses 17 and 18. Were they saying;

If you throw us in the fire God will deliver us, and if you don't throw us into the fire we will not bow to worship you?

or are they saying

If you throw us into the fire God can deliver us, but if he does not deliver us we will not worship you?




I have always thought that the IF statement went with God delivering them but my Brother In-law said he thinks it goes with being thrown into the fire. After going back and reading the verses, I not 100% convienced either way. Which is correct and why?

I'm not sure which forum this belongs in so if a Mod want's to move it, go ahead.

How about comparing it in different English translations? That's the first thing I do when I have a question about a passage.

I think you'll find it bears out Jim's answer above.

 

[Marcia]

NASB
17"If it be so, our (T)God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and (U)He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
18"(V)But even if He does not, (W)let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

NIV
17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

 

[Jim1999]

The Hebrews had a poetic way of speaking, and this accounts for the double line...this if that, but still this. Even to-day Jews tend to speak this way in either Hebrew or Yiddish.

I don't think their faith was questionable at all. They were telling the king that he was a loser even if he won.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Were they saying;

If you throw us in the fire God will deliver us, and if you don't throw us into the fire we will not bow to worship you?

or are they saying

If you throw us into the fire God can deliver us, but if he does not deliver us we will not worship you?

Can the answer be both?

I think you need to go back to verse 14.

[14] Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
[15] Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
[16] Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
[17] If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
[18] But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

The king says, and remember the king liked these guys, the king says, look I’m going to give you another chance, when the music plays you be ready to worship my image. And if you don’t I am going to throw you in the furnace. What kind of God can save you from me?

Then the Hebrew children say two things:
1. Our God can deliver us and he will deliver us.
2. We are not going to serve your gods or worship your image.

I see no lack of faith. They know God would deliver them, either from death or through death and they were not going to worship the image either way.

If you want to make a logic ladder out of it:

If worship Yes or No
Yes Then no furnace
No Then furnace – The children chose NO

If Furnace
Then miracle Yes or No
Yes no worship – The children continue to say NO
No no worship – The children continue to say NO

Does that make sense to anyone but me? They ain’t gonna worship Neb.’s image no matter what. God can save them, no doubt or lack of faith on their part there. But whether God saves or not, whether they go in the fire or not, there will be no bowing down to the image.

 

[thegospelgeek]

NC tentmaker,

Your logic ladder makes sense to me. That's the way I think, I tend to do these logic thinks way too often.


Jim,

The Hebrews had a poetic way of speaking, and this accounts for the double line...this if that, but still this. Even to-day Jews tend to speak this way in either Hebrew or Yiddish.

This helps. That's the kind of info i was looking for on this thread. Not so much what they meant but how to arrive at what they meant.

just-want-peace

Incidentally, IMNSHO, to say that it is a lack of faith should He NOT do what I want (God will deliver us) is nothing more than saying that God is my personal miracle-worker (GENIE, if you will) subject to my beck and call! (I think Job may differ with this philosophy!)

This idea smacks of the "Name it, Claim it" gospel, which is anything BUT the Gospel.!

Exactly! My brother in-law is a nice guy, but watches way to many TV preachers and gets himself confused. He then comes to me with these types of things. Sometimes he listens, sometimes not. He is starting to grow some, but very slowly.