IF Water baptism requirement for salvation, another Gospel?

[Yeshua1]

Since RCC/Lutheryn/Church of Christ require it to be done as part of salvation...

Do they preach 'another Gospel?"

 

[DHK]

Since RCC/Lutheryn/Church of Christ require it to be done as part of salvation...

Do they preach 'another Gospel?"

Yes, It is salvation by works, and not of faith.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

I don't believe Lutherans consider baptism to be part of salvation -- wouldn't put them into the same context as the RCC and CoC.

 

[Walter]

I don't believe Lutherans consider baptism to be part of salvation -- wouldn't put them into the same context as the RCC and CoC.

Lutherans absolutely believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. The Lutheran Confessions teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. Christ also says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Mark 16

 

[The Biblicist]

Lutherans absolutely believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. The Lutheran Confessions teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. Christ also says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Mark 16

What you say is true. However, believing has reference to salvation by the gospel in verse 15 and baptism has reference to salvation as an external figure as Peter explains in 1 Pet. 3:21 "the like FIGURE whereunto baptism doth also now save us."

 

[savedbymercy]

For man to perform any condition to get saved is salvation by works and a false Gospel ! Be it water baptism, Faith or Repentance !

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings savedbymercy,

For man to perform any condition to get saved is salvation by works and a false Gospel ! Be it water baptism, Faith or Repentance !

Baptism is an evidence of faith. True faith compels a man to be baptised, faith is the motivating force, baptism is the fruit of faith and is not a "work" in that sense. Those who do not become baptised are lacking in true faith.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[savedbymercy]

trevor

Those who do not become baptised are lacking in true faith.

Thats a lie. A Person can have True God given faith and never has been baptized by water.

Furthermore, water baptism is useless if one has not believed the True Gospel !

 

[convicted1]

Furthermore, water baptism is useless if one has not believed the True Gospel !

Now this is something that I am in complete agreement with. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[David Lamb]

Lutherans absolutely believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. The Lutheran Confessions teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. Christ also says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Mark 16

I don't know about Lutheran Confessions, but I do know that Christ did not say only, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." The whole verse, Mark 16:16, says:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” ​

He does not say, "He that believeth, but is not baptized, shall be damned."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't know about Lutheran Confessions, but I do know that Christ did not say only, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." The whole verse, Mark 16:16, says:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” ​

He does not say, "He that believeth, but is not baptized, shall be damned."

Doesn't it follow that if you don't believe you won't be baptized?

 

[preacher4truth]

Doesn't it follow that if you don't believe you won't be baptized?

No, it doesn't follow. There have been many persons who have been baptized that aren't born again.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, it doesn't follow. There have been many persons who have been baptized that aren't born again.

Just curious you equate belief with born again? Also why would anyone especially during the time of the Apostles be baptized if they didn't believe?

 

[preacher4truth]

Just curious you equate belief with born again? Also why would anyone especially during the time of the Apostles be baptized if they didn't believe?

OK, I'll play along as though I made a statement that I didn't make for at least half of your response. Belief here being the belief of one who is saved, not of mental assention. I thought most would understand that, but figured one would slip through the cracks on it, and you came through! :smilewinkgrin:

So of course belief and being born again equate. Now, if you want to hypothesize that to death and split fine hairs to have something to argue about then you'll have to go play in another sandbox as my point is clear.

Now, who was talking about the time of the Apostles? I can't see where I mentioned that. Try to stay on topic and within context of the discussion? :tongue3: :wavey:

You do understand how what you said 'doesn't follow' correct? Not all who are baptized believe.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

OK, I'll play along as though I made a statement that I didn't make for at least half of your response.

I don't know why you are being defensive. And I don't know why you acting as thought I've attacked you. I just asked a simple question based on your reply.

Belief here being the belief of one who is saved, not of mental assention.

Ok. I'm curious as to what you think the difference is.

I thought most would understand that, but figured one would slip through the cracks on it, and you came through!

Just a simple question. Thats all. I didn't mean to expose any cracks.

So of course belief and being born again equate.

I think your explanation of the difference between the two beliefs are in order before you explain how belief equates to born again.

Now, if you want to hypothesize that to death and split fine hairs to have something to argue about then you'll have to go play in another sandbox as my point is clear.

Wow! I haven't even argued a point. Just asking a reasonable question.

Now, who was talking about the time of the Apostles? I can't see where I mentioned that. Try to stay on topic and within context of the discussion? :tongue3: :wavey:

Well, since we are discussing statements made by the apostles in the context of the time in which they were speaking, I believe that is important to understand what they were getting at or what they mean.

You do understand how what you said 'doesn't follow' correct? Not all who are baptized believe

Well, if a person doesn't believe and in fact has a contrary belief to christianity why be baptized? Particularily when Christianity was new to the world and the sign of one becoming a Christian was baptism, then why, if you believed in the gods or were an Atheist would you be baptized? It would seem to me that not to be baptized would be less risky since at that time being baptized would certianly put a target on your back for persecution by both the Jews and the Romans. Get my drift? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

Know that the RCC sees water baptism as 'washing away" effects of original sin, and regenerating the person...

Do the Lutheryns see it same fashion?

 

[Yeshua1]

Just curious you equate belief with born again? Also why would anyone especially during the time of the Apostles be baptized if they didn't believe?

The Bible itself states that ONLY those who have placed faith in jesuswill be saved/born again, so we do NOT see the water baptism as having to do with cleansing of sin, regenerating us etc as RCC does, but as a symbolic act thatrepresents what has already happened when one received jesus by faith and was 'born from above!"

 

[savedbymercy]

yes

The Bible itself states that ONLY those who have placed faith in jesuswill be saved/born again,

More false teaching the bible does not say that, you said it , it comes from your imagination ! Man cannot do anything to bring about his birth !

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Bible itself states that ONLY those who have placed faith in jesuswill be saved/born again, so we do NOT see the water baptism as having to do with cleansing of sin, regenerating us etc as RCC does, but as a symbolic act thatrepresents what has already happened when one received jesus by faith and was 'born from above!"

Question. Because of the way you answered my question to PFT do you equate Faith with belief? If so how do you answer James who says

Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

and again

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

and again

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

and again

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

and again

Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Also John since James is clear faith must have deeds to be faith then doesn't the action of baptism actually do something? John 3 says

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

where water is baptismal water and Acts 22:16 seems to indicate that the act of baptism (faith and deeds in practice) washes away sins

And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

I don't know scriptures seem pretty clear on the point of the necessity of being baptized. But maybe you can explain it to me.

 

[Yeshua1]

Question. Because of the way you answered my question to PFT do you equate Faith with belief? If so how do you answer James who says and again and again and again and again

Also John since James is clear faith must have deeds to be faith then doesn't the action of baptism actually do something? John 3 says where water is baptismal water and Acts 22:16 seems to indicate that the act of baptism (faith and deeds in practice) washes away sins

Peter himself states that it is NOT the water itself has any power to cleanse us, but what it represents, the blood of Christ on the cross!

I don't know scriptures seem pretty clear on the point of the necessity of being baptized. But maybe you can explain it to me.

read Acts 2:38, as that states in the greek text that those who have been saved by faith in jesus are to be water baptize in his name, as he himself represents what just saved them! NOT the act of the water, but that person whose name they were to be baptised in the water with!

the bible ALWAYS states that it is by faith in jesus that we are saved, NEVER that water baptism as has a part in causing us to be reborn, but that it represents what aleady happened, points towards the name by which we MUST be saved by!