If you believe in apostasy, is it a choice?

[Nicholas25]

My pastor belives in apostasy, but he believes God will give the backsliden Christian a chance to return to fellowship with Christ. He and I were talking about someone who has been living in unrepented sin for eight or nine years, but had a strong testimony for Jesus for over a decade. He feels that before this person passes away the Lord will strongly convict their heart and they will have to spiritually repent and come back to Jesus or decide to leave him forever. If this is the case backsliding is much different than apostasy, although everyone who becomes an apostate had to backslide in the beginning. He believes that sin doesn't send one to hell because Christ paid for those on the cross of Calvary. Therefore for one to go to hell after knowing Christ as their savior, they would have to choice to totally leave him. For those of you who believe in conditional security what do you think?

 

[Jim1999]

You can't put salvation in a closet and only take it out when you want it. When man is saved he is wholly absorbed into union with Christ, never to be released. Cleaned up and polished, maybe, or even tarnished, but never disposed.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[drfuss]

My pastor belives in apostasy, but he believes God will give the backsliden Christian a chance to return to fellowship with Christ. He and I were talking about someone who has been living in unrepented sin for eight or nine years, but had a strong testimony for Jesus for over a decade. He feels that before this person passes away the Lord will strongly convict their heart and they will have to spiritually repent and come back to Jesus or decide to leave him forever. If this is the case backsliding is much different than apostasy, although everyone who becomes an apostate had to backslide in the beginning. He believes that sin doesn't send one to hell because Christ paid for those on the cross of Calvary. Therefore for one to go to hell after knowing Christ as their savior, they would have to choice to totally leave him. For those of you who believe in conditional security what do you think?

drfuss: I agree with your Pastor. Apostasy only applies to making a decision to stop trusting Christ as Savior. God will deal with a person who is intentionally living in sin and bring him to the place where he will have to make a decision either to come into fellowship with Christ or decide to stop trusting in Christ because he is tired of living under conviction.

Committing sins does not affect a Christian's salvation. Even the Wesleyan Arminians, who believe a Christian can lose his salvation, believe that committing sin does not cause a Christian to lose his salvation. To the Wesleyan Arminians, loss of salvation only occurs when a Believer will not confess, repent and be remorseful for known sins. And this loss only occurs after God has dealt with him for a considerable time and he still refuses to repent.

 

[webdog]

He believes that sin doesn't send one to hell because Christ paid for those on the cross of Calvary. Therefore for one to go to hell after knowing Christ as their savior, they would have to choice to totally leave him. For those of you who believe in conditional security what do you think?

If we can choose to leave Him, it is not eternal life. Eternal life means what it says, and says what it means. This person would still be saved, though by the skin of their teeth with nothing to show for their lives here on earth. When we are in His presence, that will be punishment enough! He said when we are faith-less...He remains faithful.

It's not up to us to receive eternal life, and it sure is not up to use to give it back.

 

[DHK]

Check through church history and you will find many "spiritual Christians," Fundamental Baptists, and others who have, for some unknown reason, departed from the faith--apostatized.
We don't know why. We don't know the heart. Only God does.
The Bible says that the "heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Only God can.
It also says: "The Lord knows them that are his.
I don't believe that it ought to be our concern to judge those who have "apostatized" and determine whether they were really saved or not. They will give an account to God one way or the other. Let that concern be up to God. We need to be concerned with the present. Let me give you one example taken from David Beale's book, "In Pursuit of Purity" page 205.

[FONT=&quot]To Fundamentalists, Cornelius Woelfkin was another example of a religious apostate. He had made a profession of faith in Christ under the ministry of I.M. Haldeman (1845-1933) at New York City’s First Baptist Church. During the first half of his adult life, Woelfkin was an active Fundamentalist.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Woelfkin had contributed articles to Fundamentalist papers, such as Watchword and Truth, and taught for a while at A.J. Gordon’s Bible and Missionary Training School. When his liberal views became fully developed is not known, but after teaching homiletics at Rochester Theological Seminary from 1906 to 1912, Woelfkin had accepted the pastorate of New York City’s Fifth Avenue Baptist Church (it became Park Avenue Baptist in 1922).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Apparently while he was at Rochester, exposure to higher criticism made Woelfkin doubt the integrity of the Scripture, and he began devoting his energies to the destruction of the orthodox faith he had once proclaimed.[/FONT]

Was he truly saved or not? We don't know but the Lord does. Leave those matters in God's hands and go on and serve the Lord. Weolfkin's salvation does not affect our ministries. Nor does the outcome of others that are like him. We need to deal with others that we come in contact on a day to day basis. We don't need to conjecture about what happened to others. Leave it to God.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

For those of you who believe in conditional security what do you think?

I believe that as Christians we retain our freewill. God desires us to love Him on our own, much like I desire my own kids to love me on their own freewill. If I force my kids to say “I love you” or to love me, the love is empty.

People chose to accept Christ or reject Him; God doesn’t twist our arms, although He certainly gives us ample opportunity, thanks to the Holy Spirit, to make the correct decisions. But it’s ours to make.

In like fashion it’s our decision to apostate and abandon and turn our back on our relationship with Christ.

In XC
-

 

[Amy.G]

Was he truly saved or not? We don't know but the Lord does. Leave those matters in God's hands and go on and serve the Lord. Weolfkin's salvation does not affect our ministries. Nor does the outcome of others that are like him. We need to deal with others that we come in contact on a day to day basis. We don't need to conjecture about what happened to others. Leave it to God.

This is really scary to me. If it can happen to Mr. Weolfkin, it can happen to me and you. What can we do (personally) to make sure we don't apostasize? This sort of thing (departing from God) surely is a choice one makes.

 

[DHK]

This is really scary to me. If it can happen to Mr. Weolfkin, it can happen to me and you. What can we do (personally) to make sure we don't apostasize? This sort of thing (departing from God) surely is a choice one makes.

Jude admonishes us:
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Woelfkin did the opposite:

[FONT=&quot]"Apparently while he was at Rochester, exposure to higher criticism made Woelfkin doubt the integrity of the Scripture, and he began devoting his energies to the destruction of the orthodox faith he had once proclaimed."[/FONT]

Rochester was a Liberal University, at that time, denying that the Bible was the Word of God. Woelfkin absorbed or was indoctrinated with all the anti-God ideas of these godless teachers and was highly influenced by them.

We need to obey Scripture:
Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Needless to say, his salvation is in the Lord's hand. I don't believe one way or another that it is up to man to judge such people whether they have badly backslidden or whether they were never saved in the first place. Is it worth fighting over. Doesn't the Bible command us to stay away from needless speculations? That is the only point I am trying to make. The Lord knows them that are His. Let Him be the judge.

 

[Jim1999]

quote: Apparently while he was at Rochester, exposure to higher criticism made Woelfkin doubt the integrity of the Scripture.
----------------------------------------

Interesting. A.H. Strong, who was president and professor of biblical theology at Rochester Theological Seminary, wrote his Systematic Theology in 1906. It was one of the most used books on theology by baptists. Certainly not give to higher criticism.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Agnus_Dei]

This is really scary to me. If it can happen to Mr. Weolfkin, it can happen to me and you. What can we do (personally) to make sure we don't apostasize? This sort of thing (departing from God) surely is a choice one makes.

It’s not really scary, I don’t adhere to the OSAS doctrine and I don’t walk around scared that I’m going to wake-up one morning lost.

John 15:4, 15:6, 15:7 and 15:10 speaks of us abiding in Christ, but there’s a pesky little qualifier in all these verses…IF.

If you’re married Amy, then your relationship with Christ should be no different. It takes work, hopefully you and your husbands love is stronger and your relationship is stronger than the day you were married. You’ve nurtured and built upon your relationship and thus it is stronger, but the day you or your husband starts to relax the communication and allow other things and problems come between you two is that day the relationship starts to suffer…you’re no longer “abiding” in one another.

We nurture and build upon our relationship with Christ much the same way. We attend Church, worshipping God and in my case, receiving the Sacraments regularly (confession and the Eucharist), and through a healthy prayer life we improve our communication, we read Holy Scripture and again in my case, I read also of the fathers of the Church many of whom were martyred and I draw inspiration from to run and finish the race.

As long as you’re building your relationship and abiding in Christ and setting a vigilant watch for the devil and his many temptations and him exploiting unfortunate things that may happen in your life that may discourage you, then that’s the best security you can have in your salvation.

In XC
-

 

[Jim1999]

All human analogies fail. They do not come from a sovereign God. Salvation is the eternal gift of God. It cannot fail. Man will persevere to the end. He may fail and fall upon his knees, but God never fails; He will win.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DHK]

quote: Apparently while he was at Rochester, exposure to higher criticism made Woelfkin doubt the integrity of the Scripture.
----------------------------------------

Interesting. A.H. Strong, who was president and professor of biblical theology at Rochester Theological Seminary, wrote his Systematic Theology in 1906. It was one of the most used books on theology by baptists. Certainly not give to higher criticism.

Cheers,

Jim

Yes, that is true. But what happened to Strong after remaining at Rochester? Here is what Beale says in his book on page 177.

[FONT=&quot]It was a professing conservative, Augustus H. Strong (1836-1921), who prepared the way for Rochester Seminary’s fall into apostasy. After serving as pastor of several churches, Strong became president of the seminary in 1872, and he remained there until 1912. Perhaps most remember Strong for his Concordance and Systematic Theology. Though he was conservative enough in his early career, he later adopted theistic evolution, a low view of the Bible’s inspiration, and pantheistic ideas. It was Strong who brought Walter Rauschenbusch (1861-1918), the father of the Social Gospel, to Rochester’s faculty in 1902. Rauschenbusch soon released his Christianity and the Social Crisis (1906) and Theology of the Social Gospel (1917). He became a popular speaker in Northern Baptist gatherings and continued at Rochester Seminary until his death in 1918.[/FONT]

Insightful, isn't it?

 

[thegospelgeek]

All human analogies fail. They do not come from a sovereign God. Salvation is the eternal gift of God. It cannot fail. Man will persevere to the end. He may fail and fall upon his knees, but God never fails; He will win.

Cheers,

Jim

Agreed, one must search the scriptures. God's ways are not man's ways.

 

[saturneptune]

Was he truly saved or not? We don't know but the Lord does. Leave those matters in God's hands and go on and serve the Lord.

That is an excellent thought. It seems in several threads I have read some like to say this or that person is not saved, usually in a public position or office, when in fact, they don't have a clue.

 

[webdog]

That is an excellent thought. It seems in several threads I have read some like to say this or that person is not saved, usually in a public position or office, when in fact, they don't have a clue.

One does get a pretty clear picture when someone says there are many paths to the Almighty.

 

[saturneptune]

One does get a pretty clear picture when someone says there are many paths to the Almighty.

Yes, it is quite clear to me. I would say there is a 99.9% chance you are right, but not 100%.

 

[webdog]

Yes, it is quite clear to me. I would say there is a 99.9% chance you are right, but not 100%.

Which .1% was Jesus off when He stated "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" If someone states there are many ways to God, that is 100% error in my eye based on Christ's words alone.

 

[saturneptune]

Which .1% was Jesus off when He stated "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" If someone states there are many ways to God, that is 100% error in my eye based on Christ's words alone.

I understand the Scripture quite well. I do not know if who you are talking about does or not. I do not know his heart. Neither do you.

It seems funny to me you thought (if this is who I think you are talking about) that you felt he lied on every point, yet, think on this point he has a quite clear understanding and is telling the truth.

 

[Jim1999]

The concordance was written by James Strong, not A.H. Strong and A.H. Strong was a theistic evolutionist when he wrote the Systematic Theology in 1906. This is the only topic that is out of line to some evangelicals. I find nothing wrong with theistic evolution and I am deemed to be fundamental by most. Strong was sound in theology and practice to the end. I don't know where this other chap got his information from.

If the two strongest fundamental Baptist seminaries in Canada at the time could use Strong's Systematic Theology I can hardly imagine it being liberal. We fought against liberalism in the early days, tooth and hook.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DHK]

The concordance was written by James Strong, not A.H. Strong and A.H. Strong was a theistic evolutionist when he wrote the Systematic Theology in 1906. This is the only topic that is out of line to some evangelicals. I find nothing wrong with theistic evolution and I am deemed to be fundamental by most. Strong was sound in theology and practice to the end. I don't know where this other chap got his information from.

If the two strongest fundamental Baptist seminaries in Canada at the time could use Strong's Systematic Theology I can hardly imagine it being liberal. We fought against liberalism in the early days, tooth and hook.

Cheers,

Jim

That was the whole point Jim. His name is David Beale, and his book is "In Search of Purity." It is a well documented history of fundamentalism, with a foreward by Bob Jones.
There are many of these great men of the faith who for some unknown reason seemingly "apostatized" in later years. A more recent case that you may be more familiar with is Clark Pinnock. I used his books on apologetics in Bible College, only to find out some years later he no longer believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. It is a complete turn-around. Who knows the reason why?