IGNORING GREEK VERBS AFFECTS BAPTIST THEOLOGY

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

IGNORING GREEK VERBS AFFECTS BAPTIST THEOLOGY

“Believeth” (“believes”) in John 3:16 and 56 other important verses is a present tense participle in Greek and should be translated “continuously believes,” or “keeps on bealieving.” The same is true of most of “believe” 63 present tense texts.

However, most Baptist preachers routinely ignore Greek verbs and change “believeth” in present participles into past-tense verbs meaning “one-time profession of faith.”

This great error changes God’s inspired plan of salvation from conditional to unconditional. While some non-believe present participles may also be translated as “habitually” or “regularly,” the normal use of 57 “believe” present participles and most present tense “believe” verbs is “continuously believing.” There is no inspired justification for translating present continuous participles and present tense verbs into one-time past tense aorist verbs.

The following are 15 of the 57 “believe” participles. When “believe” is correctly translated, only those who “continuously” believe ---

will become “sons of God” (Jn 1:12),

will “have everlasting life” (Jn 3:15, 16, 36; 5:24),

will “not be condemned” (Jn 3:18),

will be saved by the will of God (Jn 6:40),

will receive “remission” of sins (Acts 10:43),

will be “justified” (Acts 13:39),

will receive salvation (Rom 1:16),

will be “righteous by faith” (Rom 3:22),

will have their “faith” “counted for righteousness” (Rom 4:5),

will receive “imputed” righteousness (Rom 4:24),

will receive the “promise” of faith (Gal 3:22),

will be “saved” (Heb 10:39),

will be “born again” (1 Jn 5:1),

can “know they are saved” (1 Jn 5:13)

--- all have Greek present participles of “believe” which mean continuous action.

 

[John of Japan]

Here you go again. I carefully answered all of your points on your other thread, and you failed to interact with me there at all.

You are missing:
1. Participles depend on the main verb for their aspect (loosely put, kind of action). Several of your examples have aorist main verbs, thus proving the opposite to what you say. The aorist aspect points to a single action, thus meaning that salvation is a one time event, not as you say.
2. The present tense (participle or indicative or otherwise) does not always mean continuous action (imperfective aspect). It can mean one time action (aoristic aspect).
3. You are seeming to say that once you believe you stop believing. I was saved when I first believed, and I am still a believing Christian. I never stopped believing, nor will I.
4. You don't seem familiar with the fact that your "believing" references from the Greek are the substantival usage of the Greek participle, because they are preceded by the Greek definite article. That means the participles are being used as nouns, and the imperfective aspect (what you call "continuous") is greatly diminished, and often even absent.
5. Not all of your examples are participles. There were a couple of places where you even called a noun a participle.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Here you go again. I carefully answered all of your points on your other thread, and you failed to interact with me there at all.

You are missing:
1. Participles depend on the main verb for their aspect (loosely put, kind of action). Several of your examples have aorist main verbs, thus proving the opposite to what you say. The aorist aspect points to a single action, thus meaning that salvation is a one time event, not as you say.
2. The present tense (participle or indicative or otherwise) does not always mean continuous action (imperfective aspect). It can mean one time action (aoristic aspect).
3. You are seeming to say that once you believe you stop believing. I was saved when I first believed, and I am still a believing Christian. I never stopped believing, nor will I.
4. You don't seem familiar with the fact that your "believing" references from the Greek are the substantival usage of the Greek participle, because they are preceded by the Greek definite article. That means the participles are being used as nouns, and the imperfective aspect (what you call "continuous") is greatly diminished, and often even absent.
5. Not all of your examples are participles. There were a couple of places where you even called a noun a participle.

I appreciate your posts in this topic. I always learn a lot from you.

This poster isn't going to listen. The man has given himself his own Wikipedia page talking about how great he is. He more than likely doesn't even read posts to him.

 

[John of Japan]

I appreciate your posts in this topic. I always learn a lot from you.

Thank you for the kind words.

This poster isn't going to listen. The man has given himself his own Wikipedia page talking about how great he is. He more than likely doesn't even read posts to him.

Wow! His own Wikipedia page!

Well, hopefully my posts will inform those who might tend to be influenced by him.

 

[JesusFan]

Here you go again. I carefully answered all of your points on your other thread, and you failed to interact with me there at all.

You are missing:
1. Participles depend on the main verb for their aspect (loosely put, kind of action). Several of your examples have aorist main verbs, thus proving the opposite to what you say. The aorist aspect points to a single action, thus meaning that salvation is a one time event, not as you say.
2. The present tense (participle or indicative or otherwise) does not always mean continuous action (imperfective aspect). It can mean one time action (aoristic aspect).
3. You are seeming to say that once you believe you stop believing. I was saved when I first believed, and I am still a believing Christian. I never stopped believing, nor will I.
4. You don't seem familiar with the fact that your "believing" references from the Greek are the substantival usage of the Greek participle, because they are preceded by the Greek definite article. That means the participles are being used as nouns, and the imperfective aspect (what you call "continuous") is greatly diminished, and often even absent.
5. Not all of your examples are participles. There were a couple of places where you even called a noun a participle.

Much easier and better to always quote and use a recognized Hebrew/Greek scholar conclusions, as you can venture out to make your own independent conclusions when and if you have reached a certain expertise level. which to OP pster has not yet done, unlike JOJ who has shown considerable expertise

 

[atpollard]

The following are 15 of the 57 “believe” participles. When “believe” is correctly translated, only those who “continuously” believe ---

can “know they are saved” (1 Jn 5:13)

I just wanted to focus on this ONE point.
I have NOTHING to say about the Greek, but I thought I would point out the blatantly obvious LOGICAL conclusion from this:

GIVEN: "only those who continuously believe" can “know they are saved”,
AND: one cannot "continuously believe" until the END (the possibility of stopping believing is the whole point that Russell is making).
THEREFORE: 1 John 5:13 actually means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what it says ... it is IMPOSSIBLE to "know they are saved" until they are dead.

That is NOT very Good News from where I sit. (at least "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" offers hope at the end).

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Here you go again. I carefully answered all of your points on your other thread, and you failed to interact with me there at all.

You are missing:
1. Participles depend on the main verb for their aspect (loosely put, kind of action). Several of your examples have aorist main verbs, thus proving the opposite to what you say. The aorist aspect points to a single action, thus meaning that salvation is a one time event, not as you say.
2. The present tense (participle or indicative or otherwise) does not always mean continuous action (imperfective aspect). It can mean one time action (aoristic aspect).
3. You are seeming to say that once you believe you stop believing. I was saved when I first believed, and I am still a believing Christian. I never stopped believing, nor will I.
4. You don't seem familiar with the fact that your "believing" references from the Greek are the substantival usage of the Greek participle, because they are preceded by the Greek definite article. That means the participles are being used as nouns, and the imperfective aspect (what you call "continuous") is greatly diminished, and often even absent.
5. Not all of your examples are participles. There were a couple of places where you even called a noun a participle.

To John of Japan
1. “Several of your examples have aorist main verbs, thus proving the opposite to what you say. The aorist aspect points to a single action, thus meaning that salvation is a one time event, not as you say.”

Reply: (1) You are inventing Greek rules. Context is king. The aorists in my list do not change the present participles. If God had wanted the present participles to be interpreted as aorists, He would have inspired them as punctiliar aorists.

2. The present tense (participle or indicative or otherwise) does not always mean continuous action (imperfective aspect). It can mean one time action (aoristic aspect).

Reply: Please tell me where this Greek rule is found other than Charles Stanley. In non-believe participles, it may also mean “habitual,” or “regular,” BUT it never means aorist one-time!!! Again, God would have inspired it as an aorist if that is what He meant.

3. You are seeming to say that once you believe you stop believing. I was saved when I first believed, and I am still a believing Christian. I never stopped believing, nor will I.

Reply: As long as you keep on believing, you keep on being saved as the present participles teach. The eternal security doctrine teaches that you can stop believing after being initially justified and remain saved.

4. You don't seem familiar with the fact that your "believing" references from the Greek are the substantival usage of the Greek participle, because they are preceded by the Greek definite article. That means the participles are being used as nouns, and the imperfective aspect (what you call "continuous") is greatly diminished, and often even absent.

Reply: Participles are ALL either verb-nouns or verb-adjectives --- “the believing one” or “the one believing” and they are ALL progressive and not one-time aorists.


5. Not all of your examples are participles. There were a couple of places where you even called a noun a participle.

Reply: No, no, no. ALL of my examples are participles per Nathan Han’s, A Parsing Guide of the Greek New Testament. The normal Greek nouns for “believe” are variations of “pis-tos” or “pis-tia.”

You have ignored most of the texts in my list. The very definition of the “will of God” is the participle in John 6:40, of “righteousness by faith” is the participle in Romans 3:22, of “justification by faith” is the participle in Romans 4:5, of “imputed righteousness” is the participle in Romans 4:24 and of “being born again” is the participle in 1 John 5:1.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

I just wanted to focus on this ONE point.
I have NOTHING to say about the Greek, but I thought I would point out the blatantly obvious LOGICAL conclusion from this:

GIVEN: "only those who continuously believe" can “know they are saved”,
AND: one cannot "continuously believe" until the END (the possibility of stopping believing is the whole point that Russell is making).
THEREFORE: 1 John 5:13 actually means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what it says ... it is IMPOSSIBLE to "know they are saved" until they are dead.

That is NOT very Good News from where I sit. (at least "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" offers hope at the end).

If I die knowing that I have, to the best of my ability, faithfully served Christ, I can die with the full assurance that I have been saved and have endured to the end. He is able and has kept me from falling. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. The Apostles John and Paul were ready to die nd we can be also. Russ Kelly

 

[Reynolds]

If I die knowing that I have, to the best of my ability, faithfully served Christ, I can die with the full assurance that I have been saved and have endured to the end. He is able and has kept me from falling. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. The Apostles John and Paul were ready to die nd we can be also. Russ Kelly

"To the best of my ability". Works based salvation.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works. Works ae the evidence of justifying faith and the evidence of sanctifying faith. When you first accepted Christ, did you believe in Christ "to the best of your ability????" Stop playing games and be honest. We are no more justified by works than we are sanctified by works.

 

[John of Japan]

To John of Japan
1. “Several of your examples have aorist main verbs, thus proving the opposite to what you say. The aorist aspect points to a single action, thus meaning that salvation is a one time event, not as you say.”

Reply: (1) You are inventing Greek rules. Context is king. The aorists in my list do not change the present participles. If God had wanted the present participles to be interpreted as aorists, He would have inspired them as punctiliar aorists.

2. The present tense (participle or indicative or otherwise) does not always mean continuous action (imperfective aspect). It can mean one time action (aoristic aspect).

Reply: Please tell me where this Greek rule is found other than Charles Stanley. In non-believe participles, it may also mean “habitual,” or “regular,” BUT it never means aorist one-time!!! Again, God would have inspired it as an aorist if that is what He meant.

3. You are seeming to say that once you believe you stop believing. I was saved when I first believed, and I am still a believing Christian. I never stopped believing, nor will I.

Reply: As long as you keep on believing, you keep on being saved as the present participles teach. The eternal security doctrine teaches that you can stop believing after being initially justified and remain saved.

4. You don't seem familiar with the fact that your "believing" references from the Greek are the substantival usage of the Greek participle, because they are preceded by the Greek definite article. That means the participles are being used as nouns, and the imperfective aspect (what you call "continuous") is greatly diminished, and often even absent.

Reply: Participles are ALL either verb-nouns or verb-adjectives --- “the believing one” or “the one believing” and they are ALL progressive and not one-time aorists.


5. Not all of your examples are participles. There were a couple of places where you even called a noun a participle.

Reply: No, no, no. ALL of my examples are participles per Nathan Han’s, A Parsing Guide of the Greek New Testament. The normal Greek nouns for “believe” are variations of “pis-tos” or “pis-tia.”

You have ignored most of the texts in my list. The very definition of the “will of God” is the participle in John 6:40, of “righteousness by faith” is the participle in Romans 3:22, of “justification by faith” is the participle in Romans 4:5, of “imputed righteousness” is the participle in Romans 4:24 and of “being born again” is the participle in 1 John 5:1.

You don't pay attention. I discussed the grammar of every single one of your verses in your other thread, but you ignored it. Don't have time now. (I'm in a coffee shop with my wife.) But Monday I'll tackle it again

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Forgive me, John
I honestly did not see your discussion in the other tread and look forward to its repeat in this thread Monday.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

I found your article. It makes no sense because you did not read the introduction to the 15 texts. The present participles of "believe" PRECEDED the conclusions. You only commented on the conclusions and that was really wrong.

 

[John of Japan]

I found your article. It makes no sense because you did not read the introduction to the 15 texts. The present participles of "believe" PRECEDED the conclusions. You only commented on the conclusions and that was really wrong.

I this addressed to me? I don't know what you are talking about here.

 

[John of Japan]

Forgive me, John
I honestly did not see your discussion in the other tread and look forward to its repeat in this thread Monday.

I'm going to lay out some rules of Greek grammar here that disprove what you are trying to say with your interpretation of the present participle of the Greek word for "believe," or πιστεύω. With each rule I spell out, I will give quotes from Greek grammars. (I have a bunch more I am not quoting. If these scholars don't convince you, nothing will.)


Rule 1: The present tense is often not continuative

Therefore, it is a great mistake to say that a present participle means we must keep believing or we will lose our salvation. The theologian must look at the context, in particular examining the main verb of the sentence to get the Aktionsart (a German word meaning “kind of action”).

“But it should be noted that the present indicative is also often aoristic and the future is usually so” (A. T. Robertson, A Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament,” p. 139).

“Some presents express punctiliar action and a few even express perfective action” (James Brooks and Carton Winbery, Syntax of New Testament Greek, p. 76).


Rule 2: When the article is before a participle, it is substantival.

This means it is working as a noun, not a verb. The Aktionsart is then diminished. In particular, ὁ πιστεύων (literally, “the believing one”) and other present participles of πιστεύω (“I believe”) should often be translated as just “the believer.” There is no other word in Koine Greek to mean believer.

“The participle, like an adjective, may be used in the place of a noun or other substantive. The participle itself then functions as a noun” (James Brooks and Carton Winbery, Syntax of New Testament Greek, p. 130).

“Like an adjective, the participle may also be used substantivally, that is, as a substantive, or noun” David Alan Black, Learn to Read New Testament Greek, 150).


Rule 3: The participle depends on the main verb for its Aktionsart, "kind of action'

Therefore, if the main verb is not a present tense, but a perfect tense or an aorist tense, the present participle points to that Aktionsart. In other words, participles cannot be the main verb. So, since there are numerous aorist or perfect main verbs in the examples given for “believing,” those verses prove just the opposite of the idea that one can lose his or her salvation. Those examples actually prove that salvation is one time only as per the aorist tense (looking at the action as a single whole) or perfect (past action with results remaining).

“It often turns out that a Present Participle alludes to an action with which the action of the main verb coincides” (C. F. D. Moule, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p. 99).

“Generally speaking, the present participle denotes action taking place at the same time as the action of the main verb” (David Alan Black, It’s Still Greek to Me, p. 124).

“The ruling consideration in interpreting participles is that they express something that is dependent on the main verb” (David Alan Black, It’s Still Greek to Me, p. 125).

Here are some examples from your list along the lines of this third rule.

1.
John 3:16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

The verb “perish” is an aorist subjunctive, showing that a believer will not perish as an event. In other words, perishing is a one time event, not something that is possible over and over.

2.
will receive “remission” of sins (Acts 10:43),
Acts 10:43 Τούτῳ πάντες οἱ προφῆται μαρτυροῦσιν, ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν λαβεῖν διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ πάντα τὸν πιστεύοντα εἰς αὐτόν.

The infinitive for “receive” is an aorist infinitive. Therefore, receiving remission (forgiveness) of sins is a one time event, not over and over as would be the case if a person lost his salvation.

3.
John 1:12 Ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ·

“Receive” and “Gave” are both aorists. “Become” is an aorist infinitive. So it is a one time receiving to become a son of God.It is “given” one time only, not repeatedly, as would be the case if one kept losing his salvation.

4.
can “know they are saved” (1 Jn 5:13)

1 John 5:13 Ταῦτα ἔγραψα ὑμῖν τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα εἰδῆτε ὅτι ζωὴν αἰώνιον ἔχετε, καὶ ἵνα πιστεύητε εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ.

“Know” is a perfect subjunctive. The perfect tense indicates a single action in the past that produces results that continue. So we can know once and for all that we are saved. We don't have to repent over and over again, since we can know once for all.


5.
will be “born again” (1 Jn 5:1),

1 John 5:1 Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστὶν ὁ χριστός, ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται· καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

“Born again” is a perfect passive participle. The perfect tense shows action repeated in the past with continuing results. Therefore we are only born again one time, and our salvation is the result that continues.

 

[John of Japan]

To John of Japan
Reply: (1) You are inventing Greek rules. Context is king. The aorists in my list do not change the present participles. If God had wanted the present participles to be interpreted as aorists, He would have inspired them as punctiliar aorists.

No, I absolutely am not inventing Greek rules. I am a Greek professor, and know the rules well.

Reply: Please tell me where this Greek rule is found other than Charles Stanley. In non-believe participles, it may also mean “habitual,” or “regular,” BUT it never means aorist one-time!!! Again, God would have inspired it as an aorist if that is what He meant.

See below.

Reply: Participles are ALL either verb-nouns or verb-adjectives --- “the believing one” or “the one believing” and they are ALL progressive and not one-time aorists.

Technically, participles are considered verbal adjectives, not normally verbal nouns. However, when a present participle is preceded by a Greek definite article, it is the substantival (like a noun) usage of the participle. See my other post for grammars that teach this. Greek adjectives do the same thing. If preceded by the article, they are being used as nouns.

5. Not all of your examples are participles. There were a couple of places where you even called a noun a participle.

Reply: No, no, no. ALL of my examples are participles per Nathan Han’s, A Parsing Guide of the Greek New Testament. The normal Greek nouns for “believe” are variations of “pis-tos” or “pis-tia.”

I have to admit, I can't find where you mention a noun to prove your point. But again, almost all of the participles you refer to are substantival (used as a noun).