Illegal Immigration

[sag38]

Here are links to two videos worth watching.

1. Ray Steven's take on illegal immigration.
(Very funny but too accurate for comfort)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgOHOHKBEqE&feature=fvw

2. Representative from Texas (speech in congress)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqL0cG-saCU

 

[Bob Alkire]

Ted Poe show how our federal government is talking out of both side of their mouth.

Feds fighting the new Az. law on immigration enforcement and the sign shows what happens when the laws are not enforced if their is a problem call 911 and the local law will have to come. But isn't it the Feds who says Az. needs to stay out of it?

 

[Crabtownboy]

I am back in Prague, Czech Republic, working as a volunteer at the Baptist seminary. This morning at breakfast the topic of aliens, legal and illegal, came up. It was very interesting. At the table there was a pastor from Spain, a lady pastor from Wales, two of us from the US, a pastor who was born in Hong Kong and now lives in Canada and a man from one of the Eastern European countries. What was interesting was that each country represented has problems with illegal aliens. It is not just a US problem, it is an international problem. One aspect of the conversation dealt with, "What is the role of the Christian church toward aliens."

It is a complicated issue, especially in the US where many, at least in my area, were fleeing for their lives from Central and South America.

What is or should the role of the state be in this matter?

What is or should the role of the Christian church be in this matter?

The topic began with a discussion of France deporting all of the Romas [gypsies] they can find.

 

[sag38]

You can find other speeches by Ted Poe. I would imagine that Nancy and the rest of the dems hate to hear him tell the truth.

 

[TCassidy]

My Native American neighbor told me that the illegal alien problem is much older than we usually think. But he didn't call them "illegal aliens." He called them "white people."

 

[dwmoeller1]

What's the problem with illegal immigration?

 

[TCassidy]

What's the problem with illegal immigration?

$113,000,000,000 per year? That is 113 BILLION dollars.

 

[Salty]

My Native American neighbor

They are no more native than European and African immigrants. Remember the "native Americans" also Immigrated via Alaska.

 

[dwmoeller1]

$113,000,000,000 per year? That is 113 BILLION dollars.

What's your source (preferably more than some speaker/politician/radio person said so)?

 

[billwald]

>Remember the "native Americans" also Immigrated via Alaska.

What should 6 Day young earth creationists remember?

 

[dwmoeller1]

$113,000,000,000 per year? That is 113 BILLION dollars.

I believe I found the study you were referring to. Several problems with simply quoting this study as an explanation of the problem of illegal immigration.

1. There is an equally well founded study that shows illegals are a net boon to our economy. Since the problem remains a little studied one, and since the two main studies are directly contradictory, quoting either as an "answer" would be fallacious.

2. But lets say, for the sake of discussion, that this study is the correct one. It still isn't an answer to the question of why *illegal* immigration is a problem. Why? Because this same study shows that the fact that these people are here illegally means that the cost to America is actually *less* than if they were legal. So, if the immigration laws were such that all these same people had come here legally, the cost to American would actually be more than it is now (according to the estimates of this same study).

Thus, the study is cannot be used as an argument against illegal immigration, but against immigration of poorer people PERIOD! If the levels of immigration are ignored, then its actually cheaper to have them here illegally. Thus, this study, even if correct in its estimates, is by no means an argument against illegal immigration, but against letting poor immigrants come here at all.

3. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the fact that a very large portion of these expenses are the direct result of our welfare laws. Do away with those sorts of programs (or restrict them more) and a very large part of these costs disappear. Thus, the expenses are not even primarily about poor people immigrating but about our system of laws which likes to redistribute wealth.

Its fallacious to blame the 113 billion on the illegals when
a. its not even clear that 113 is at all accurate
b. even if it is accurate its still less than if they were hear legally
c. even if it is accurate, its at least half the fault of those who allow such welfare laws to be passed (ie. the American people).



So, my question still stands - whats the problem with *illegal* immigration?

 

[TCassidy]

So, my question still stands - whats the problem with *illegal* immigration?

Its "Illegal?"

 

[Bob Alkire]

Its "Illegal?"

Great answer!!! Short and to the point.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Its "Illegal?"

Yet people who tried to illegally leave countries like Cuba, and the Eastern bloc nations pre-1989 are generally praised and even held up as heroes. Additionally, acts which are also illegal but are seen as representing "original intent" or "freedom" or "life" are often held up as heroic, or,at the least, tolerated and not faulted for its illegality by conservatives. Some examples: Judge Moore with the 10 commandment display, those who get arrested during pro-life protest, the original Boston Tea party, etc. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the laws that are being broken is beside the point since they remain illegal.

And this doesn't touch on the laws which you may agree are perfectly legitimate yet either
a. you break yourself w/o getting all worked up about it (Ever gone over the speed limit? Did the fact that you did some illegal cause you to go turn yourself in? Did you even get the worked up about it?)
b. or, though you try not to break, you still don't see those who do as "criminals" or get upset that they are "ruining the economy".


Thus, the simple fact that its illegal can't be the problem either. Sure, its illegal, but is it the sort of illegal that is really a problem? If so, why?

 

[carpro]

I am back in Prague, Czech Republic, working as a volunteer at the Baptist seminary. This morning at breakfast the topic of aliens, legal and illegal, came up. It was very interesting. At the table there was a pastor from Spain, a lady pastor from Wales, two of us from the US, a pastor who was born in Hong Kong and now lives in Canada and a man from one of the Eastern European countries. What was interesting was that each country represented has problems with illegal aliens. It is not just a US problem, it is an international problem. One aspect of the conversation dealt with, "What is the role of the Christian church toward aliens."

It is a complicated issue, especially in the US where many, at least in my area, were fleeing for their lives from Central and South America.

SNIP

What is or should the role of the Christian church be in this matter?

No. It's not complicated at all.

The chuch ministers to whoever walks in the door in need, without regard to their immigration status.

But the church does not hide lawbreakers and make criminals of church members.

 

[TCassidy]

Yet people who tried to illegally leave countries like Cuba, and the Eastern bloc nations pre-1989 are generally praised and even held up as heroes.

Anyone is free to leave any time they want to.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Anyone is free to leave any time they want to.

Not the point though. I merely show that illegally crossing borders is (most likely) not really "the" problem even in your mind. After all, you (most likely) wouldn't see simple illegality as a problem in all cases (eg. leaving a country illegally, Tea Party, etc.) If so, then the simple answer of "illegal", while simple and perfectly accurate, doesn't really answer the question. It only answer the question if you are one who believes that its ALWAYS a problem when someone breaks a law.

 

[dwmoeller1]

No. It's not complicated at all.

The chuch ministers to whoever walks in the door in need, without regard to their immigration status.

But the church does not hide lawbreakers and make criminals of church members.

In this particular case, or as a general principle? If the former, why in this particular type of case? If that latter, then what is your opinion of someone like Corrie Ten Boom or Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

 

[TCassidy]

It only answer the question if you are one who believes that its ALWAYS a problem when someone breaks a law.

A JUST and NECESSARY law. BIG difference.

 

[dwmoeller1]

A JUST and NECESSARY law. BIG difference.

Not if you answers is simply "Its illegal." Such a statement doesn't distinguish between what is just and necessary and what is not. IOW, its a simplistic answer which doesn't really answer the question. The proper response to a 'answer' like "Its illegal." is "So?"

Lots of things are illegal. Some you disapprove of, some you approve of, and most you probably don't really care about. Thus, the fact that an act is illegal tells us little if anything by itself. Follow me?

So, why is illegal immigration a problem? If its because the law is just and necessary,
a. Why do you identify it as just? As necessary?
b. Why is it always a problem when one breaks a just or necessary law? For instance, you would hold laws against trespassing to be just and necessary, correct? If so, would you say that its *always* a problem if a trespassing law is broken - is there no case where trespassing might be acceptable?