Repent_and_Believe
New Member
Imminency defined by Stanton:
1. Christ may come at any moment.
2. The uncertainty of the time of His Coming.
3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.
Each can be shown to be false by scripture. No, I am not going to call anyone names here. This is a Biblical discussion. Not a name calling event.
First, lets deal with the idea that Christ could come at any moment.
1. Did Peter believe this? No, the Lord in John 21 foretold his death. Later in II Peter 1:14 he said that he would have to put off this tabernacle AS THE LORD FORETOLD! Therefore, to say that Peter believed in Imminency is false. He never taught that the Lord could come at any moment. He did teach in II Peter 3:10 that the day of the Lord would catch the lost unawares, coming AS a thief in the night. That is the manner in which the Lord would come. Later in II Peter 3:12 we are told to look for the Day of the Lord. That it wouldnt take us unawares.
2. Paul didnt believe in an "anytime" appearing. His epistles were all finished BEFORE Peter died. Therefore, the Spirit of God didnt give Paul words to record (via scribes in many cases) that taught Imminency because Peter's death was foretold. As a matter of fact Paul exhorted us to not be surprised by the coming of the Lord. In I Thes 5:1-11 he said:
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
The key verse is: 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
So to summarize so far:
1. Peter's death was foretold.
2. Christ would NOT come during Peter's lifetime.
3. Paul wrote all of his books during Peter's lifetime. Since Peter wouldnt die before Paul had delivered the epistles then these books do not teach Imminency. The Spirit made sure that the testimony and prophesy given by Jesus of Peter's death would not be turned into a lie.
3. John didnt believe in the theory of Imminency. His death was foretold as well. He would die in captivity. Thus none of John's epistles teach Imminency as John knew he would die and NOT see the Lord's return during his lifetime.
And the rest of the epistles follow suit. None of them teach Imminency as they were all written before John died. Since the Holy Spirit is not a liar and knew that John would not see the Lord's return during that Apostle's lifetime then the Spirit never gave any verse in the Bible that taught Imminency.
Now to disucss each of the points of Imminency:
1. Christ could come at any moment.
Not true. At least TWO things much come first. The falling away of the saints (apostasy) and the revealing of the Antichrist - II Thes 2:1-3.
Thus Christ cannot come at any moment because HIS word says He wont come until these two things occur. The great apostasy has not happened. The Antichrist has not yet come - when he does you will know it because it will be a truly WORLDWIDE (not as in Roman times - just the Med and some of the surrounding areas) event. Dan 11 will be fulfilled. And the Great Apostasy has not yet happened when "believers" will flock to the false religious banner.
2. The uncertainty of the time of His coming.
Not true. We know that:
1. Daniel by inspiration foretold of a seventy week period. That last week would start with the signing of a convenant with the prince of the people that should destroy the city (it was not Antioches as the coming of the Lord happens right after the Week is over). That covenant would be broken in the MIDST or middle of the week. Mt. 24:13-21 says that the Great Tribulation happens AFTER this the man of sin desecrates the temple.
2. The Day of the Lord begins IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Joel 2:31, Mt. 24:29-31
3. No believer will be left behind that is alive. I Thes 4:15-17. The dead in Christ shall be raised at this instant or twinkling of an eye. The believers will be given new bodies and be fully sanctified.
Thus we are not uncertain of the time of His coming. We know that certain events must happen first and then at the end of the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years He will return.
Do we know the exact hour? No. However, we are not to exptect him until certain things must happen.
And finally,
3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.
This is not true. There are at least two events that must occur before Christ our Lord returns to Earth to rapture his people.
There must be an apostasy.
The man of sin must be revealed, the Son of perdition.
The latter takes place in the midst of the week.
A week of years is seven years. Thus the revealing will take place at the mid point or approximately 3.5 years into the Seventieth Week. This period is known as the Great Tribulation. No other tribulation (for believers) has happened in the past like this one nor will any other that happens after this writer is done typing this text happen before this terrible time occurs.
Thus you have:
1. The beginning of the Seventieth Week foretold by Daniel with a pact between the Antichrist and "many".
2. A great apostasy will occur. Folks will flock to the Antichrist's banner.
3. In the midst of the week the Antichrist will break the pact and desecrate the temple in Jerusalem. All will know about it. World wide persecution will ensue. Folks will be made to receive the mark or perish (there is an option - its not a forced activity).
4. During this latter 3.5 year period the days will be shortened for our sake.
5. Christ will come to rapture the church. The blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Lord.
The blessed hope AND glorious appearing are the same thing. The word AND ties them together not only in the Greek but also in the English. Its like saying "The catch by the tight end, Dwight Clark, was a great AND thrilling event in playoff history."
The Lord is our blessed hope.
We are not to fear death. We need to fear God!
God says he will give us strength to resist the Devil. No power of the Devil can compare to God's power.
Answering no to the mark of the beast will not seem easy now but the Spirit will guide us at THAT time to do so. And die a martyr's death..
Some may say that there were those martyrs that recanted, left the stake and returned to their homes rather than be burned. Yes, that is true. But the Lord Himself said to not rehearse what we would say in that moment. That the Spirit Himself would give us utterance.
And this is not to belittle anyone's position. As a matter of fact I belittle noone's position on this. You are free to believe what you want. This was given that those that are wondering about a Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath rapture would hear it from one that used to be a Pre-Trib believer like many.
We all have one thing in common - we dont believe that God's people will suffer His divine wrath.
Praise God to that and lets get out and win more folks for Christ. Let's not be decieved into thinking that the Day of the Lord has come already. Or that it will take us unawares.
The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord/Christ are not in the same time period. Search the scriptures and prayerfully post here your questions or comments.
No personal attacks please. Keep this board and thread free of caustic comments. I will not answer anyone that makes personal or sarcastic remarks. I dont doubt the intention of any of the authors that teach any other position. Lets keep to the Bible and not get hung up in name calling.
1. Christ may come at any moment.
2. The uncertainty of the time of His Coming.
3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.
Each can be shown to be false by scripture. No, I am not going to call anyone names here. This is a Biblical discussion. Not a name calling event.
First, lets deal with the idea that Christ could come at any moment.
1. Did Peter believe this? No, the Lord in John 21 foretold his death. Later in II Peter 1:14 he said that he would have to put off this tabernacle AS THE LORD FORETOLD! Therefore, to say that Peter believed in Imminency is false. He never taught that the Lord could come at any moment. He did teach in II Peter 3:10 that the day of the Lord would catch the lost unawares, coming AS a thief in the night. That is the manner in which the Lord would come. Later in II Peter 3:12 we are told to look for the Day of the Lord. That it wouldnt take us unawares.
2. Paul didnt believe in an "anytime" appearing. His epistles were all finished BEFORE Peter died. Therefore, the Spirit of God didnt give Paul words to record (via scribes in many cases) that taught Imminency because Peter's death was foretold. As a matter of fact Paul exhorted us to not be surprised by the coming of the Lord. In I Thes 5:1-11 he said:
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
The key verse is: 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
So to summarize so far:
1. Peter's death was foretold.
2. Christ would NOT come during Peter's lifetime.
3. Paul wrote all of his books during Peter's lifetime. Since Peter wouldnt die before Paul had delivered the epistles then these books do not teach Imminency. The Spirit made sure that the testimony and prophesy given by Jesus of Peter's death would not be turned into a lie.
3. John didnt believe in the theory of Imminency. His death was foretold as well. He would die in captivity. Thus none of John's epistles teach Imminency as John knew he would die and NOT see the Lord's return during his lifetime.
And the rest of the epistles follow suit. None of them teach Imminency as they were all written before John died. Since the Holy Spirit is not a liar and knew that John would not see the Lord's return during that Apostle's lifetime then the Spirit never gave any verse in the Bible that taught Imminency.
Now to disucss each of the points of Imminency:
1. Christ could come at any moment.
Not true. At least TWO things much come first. The falling away of the saints (apostasy) and the revealing of the Antichrist - II Thes 2:1-3.
Thus Christ cannot come at any moment because HIS word says He wont come until these two things occur. The great apostasy has not happened. The Antichrist has not yet come - when he does you will know it because it will be a truly WORLDWIDE (not as in Roman times - just the Med and some of the surrounding areas) event. Dan 11 will be fulfilled. And the Great Apostasy has not yet happened when "believers" will flock to the false religious banner.
2. The uncertainty of the time of His coming.
Not true. We know that:
1. Daniel by inspiration foretold of a seventy week period. That last week would start with the signing of a convenant with the prince of the people that should destroy the city (it was not Antioches as the coming of the Lord happens right after the Week is over). That covenant would be broken in the MIDST or middle of the week. Mt. 24:13-21 says that the Great Tribulation happens AFTER this the man of sin desecrates the temple.
2. The Day of the Lord begins IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Joel 2:31, Mt. 24:29-31
3. No believer will be left behind that is alive. I Thes 4:15-17. The dead in Christ shall be raised at this instant or twinkling of an eye. The believers will be given new bodies and be fully sanctified.
Thus we are not uncertain of the time of His coming. We know that certain events must happen first and then at the end of the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years He will return.
Do we know the exact hour? No. However, we are not to exptect him until certain things must happen.
And finally,
3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.
This is not true. There are at least two events that must occur before Christ our Lord returns to Earth to rapture his people.
There must be an apostasy.
The man of sin must be revealed, the Son of perdition.
The latter takes place in the midst of the week.
A week of years is seven years. Thus the revealing will take place at the mid point or approximately 3.5 years into the Seventieth Week. This period is known as the Great Tribulation. No other tribulation (for believers) has happened in the past like this one nor will any other that happens after this writer is done typing this text happen before this terrible time occurs.
Thus you have:
1. The beginning of the Seventieth Week foretold by Daniel with a pact between the Antichrist and "many".
2. A great apostasy will occur. Folks will flock to the Antichrist's banner.
3. In the midst of the week the Antichrist will break the pact and desecrate the temple in Jerusalem. All will know about it. World wide persecution will ensue. Folks will be made to receive the mark or perish (there is an option - its not a forced activity).
4. During this latter 3.5 year period the days will be shortened for our sake.
5. Christ will come to rapture the church. The blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Lord.
The blessed hope AND glorious appearing are the same thing. The word AND ties them together not only in the Greek but also in the English. Its like saying "The catch by the tight end, Dwight Clark, was a great AND thrilling event in playoff history."
The Lord is our blessed hope.
We are not to fear death. We need to fear God!
God says he will give us strength to resist the Devil. No power of the Devil can compare to God's power.
Answering no to the mark of the beast will not seem easy now but the Spirit will guide us at THAT time to do so. And die a martyr's death..
Some may say that there were those martyrs that recanted, left the stake and returned to their homes rather than be burned. Yes, that is true. But the Lord Himself said to not rehearse what we would say in that moment. That the Spirit Himself would give us utterance.
And this is not to belittle anyone's position. As a matter of fact I belittle noone's position on this. You are free to believe what you want. This was given that those that are wondering about a Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath rapture would hear it from one that used to be a Pre-Trib believer like many.
We all have one thing in common - we dont believe that God's people will suffer His divine wrath.
Praise God to that and lets get out and win more folks for Christ. Let's not be decieved into thinking that the Day of the Lord has come already. Or that it will take us unawares.
The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord/Christ are not in the same time period. Search the scriptures and prayerfully post here your questions or comments.
No personal attacks please. Keep this board and thread free of caustic comments. I will not answer anyone that makes personal or sarcastic remarks. I dont doubt the intention of any of the authors that teach any other position. Lets keep to the Bible and not get hung up in name calling.
