In Essentials Unity, In Non-essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: and are a good deal more biblical than your pelagianism.

HP: Could you inform the list as to what my ‘pelagianism’ you refer to consists of? That might prove to be very enlightening to the list.

 

[Dustin]

HP: There should be no reason to wonder why the church is so divided.

Here, I believe, is a voice in accordance to reason, a voice that God indeed used mightily in the furtherance of His gospel. Would to God more would listen to his advice. Here is Wesley on this issue.

Wesley on Original sin. “Our moral faculties have been distorted by the Fall, but `nothing is sin, strictly speaking, but a voluntary transgression of the known will of God'.

Wesley on Liberty of Thought ““The Scripture does not, that I remember, anywhere say, in express words, that the sin of Adam is imputed to his children; or, that the sins of believers are imputed to Christ; or, that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers: but the true meaning of these expressions is sufficiently found in several places of Scripture.” “Yet since these express words and phrases, , of the imputation of Adam’s sin to us, of our sins to Christ, and of Christ’s righteousness to us, are not plainly written in Scripture we should not impose it on every Christian, to use these very expressions. Let every one take his liberty, either of confining himself to strictly Scriptural language, or manifesting his sense of these plain Scriptural doctrines, in words and phrases of his own.”

It had to be Wesley...


I think Wesley was a very decieved man and his theology is dangerous, not to mention horrible. I believe he decieved a lot of people with his horrible theology.

Just show me from the Bible where it says there is an age of accoutibility.

Leave Wesley in the grave where he should be.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dustin: Just show me from the Bible where it says there is an age of accoutibility.

HP: Why would you have to see proof in Scripture? Do you deny man is a moral agent? Did you have to find your proof in Scripture?

Dustin, God has granted to man a thing called reason, in which common sense univerally testifies to such an age. The Jews of the OT, without Scripture, clearly perceived of and understood the reality of such an age. To deny such an age exists is to deny one of the most basic universal truths of moral agency. While the actual age that it is achieved varies and is a matter of debate, there is no reasonable argument to deny such an age clearly exists.

 

[Dustin]

I didn't affirm or deny anything, I just asked for where it said there was an age of accountability in the Bible.

I didn't know that OT Jews believed in that either. Enlighten me, show me where that is. It's interesting, in all honesty.

All I ask is you back up your claims with Scripture.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin


PS. OH NO!!! POST 666!!!! AHHHHH!!!!!! hahaha.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: #1. WHAT IS THE FALLEN SINFUL NATURE using your model? Where did it come from? How/when do we get it?

HP: Our fallen sinful nature is the product of the choices, and the subsequent formed habits, we have developed as we yielded our wills in accordance to the natural depraved propensities and influences we are born with, and the sinful influences around us.

So you are saying our fallen nature -- our sinful nature has two parts to it.

#1. that which we "acquire" in this life through yielding to sin
#2. that which we are born with - (internal desire-propsenity/tendancy) to sin?


How did mankind come to get the fallen-sinful nature that we are born with?

How "strong" is it according to Scripure? Where do you find it in scripture?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: #2. What change takes place "in our nature" at conversion using your model?

HP: The change takes place in the heart and will of man when man is freed from the bondage of past failures by faith in the atoning work of Christ, and by faith accepts forgiveness for sins that are past. At that point we willingly place our faith in the promise of God to aide us in making right choices, believing what He has promised when he says that “there is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, who will with the temptation make a way of escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” As we yield our wills in allegiance to God’s promise of aide, the enemy of our souls and our selfish will with all the force of past habits and warped propensities is defeated in that we recognize that with the Lord’s promised influences we are well able to do that which God commands.

I am asking about the "change our nature" not necessarily the change in our relationship with God. You already stated that our sinful nature is comprised of BOTH our internal-inherited desire "propensity" to sin as well as our aqcuired habbits toward sin. Are you saying that there is "no change in our nature" at the New Birth - just a change in our relationship to God and His willingness to "aid us" in the battle against sin?

No "NEW Creation"??



Quote:
BR: #3. What is the difference in the "nature" of the person pre-conversion vs post conversion?

HP: Pre- conversion we are willingly yielding our wills in accordance to selfish desires and propensities. Subsequent to or post conversion we should be willingly yielding our wills in conformity to God’s known will, relying on God’s proffered help and strength to act in accordance to love towards God and our fellowman.

Change in our attitude -- but no change in our "nature"??

HP

In salvation God, through faith, frees us from the bondage of our sinful natures, formed by the willing of our wills to selfishness, wiping out the guilt and punishment rightfully incurred.

If in either case we are free to "will" either to serve God or serve sin - (pre-conversion and post-convesion) then how is the previous state "bondage"?? How -- from what are we "freed" in terms of bondage??

As we are freed from the guilt and penalty of past sins,

Freed from debt -- ok

But what about the slavery - the bondage?

we by faith are enabled to willingly pursue righteousness, joy and peace. We are given a new nature

So you are saying that BEFORE the new birth we were not "enabled" to pursue righteousness? The new birth "enables" us through faith to make right choices?

, a clean slate, free from the guilt of past

Ok

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: #2. What change takes place "in our nature" at conversion using your model?

HP: The change takes place in the heart and will of man when man is freed from the bondage of past failures by faith in the atoning work of Christ, and by faith accepts forgiveness for sins that are past. At that point we willingly place our faith in the promise of God to aide us in making right choices, believing what He has promised when he says that “there is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, who will with the temptation make a way of escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” As we yield our wills in allegiance to God’s promise of aide, the enemy of our souls and our selfish will with all the force of past habits and warped propensities is defeated in that we recognize that with the Lord’s promised influences we are well able to do that which God commands.

I am asking about the "change our nature" not necessarily the change in our relationship with God. You already stated that our sinful nature is comprised of BOTH our internal-inherited desire "propensity" to sin as well as our aqcuired habbits toward sin. Are you saying that there is "no change in our nature" at the New Birth - just a change in our relationship to God and His willingness to "aid us" in the battle against sin?

No "NEW Creation"??



Quote:
BR: #3. What is the difference in the "nature" of the person pre-conversion vs post conversion?

HP: Pre- conversion we are willingly yielding our wills in accordance to selfish desires and propensities. Subsequent to or post conversion we should be willingly yielding our wills in conformity to God’s known will, relying on God’s proffered help and strength to act in accordance to love towards God and our fellowman.

Change in our attitude -- but no change in our "nature"??

HP

In salvation God, through faith, frees us from the bondage of our sinful natures, formed by the willing of our wills to selfishness, wiping out the guilt and punishment rightfully incurred.

If in either case we are free to "will" either to serve God or serve sin - (pre-conversion and post-convesion) then how is the previous state "bondage"?? How -- from what are we "freed" in terms of bondage??

As we are freed from the guilt and penalty of past sins,

Freed from debt -- ok

But what about the slavery - the bondage?

we by faith are enabled to willingly pursue righteousness, joy and peace. We are given a new nature

So you are saying that BEFORE the new birth we were not "enabled" to pursue righteousness? The new birth "enables" us through faith to make right choices?

, a clean slate, free from the guilt of past

Ok free

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: #2. What change takes place "in our nature" at conversion using your model?

HP: The change takes place in the heart and will of man when man is freed from the bondage of past failures by faith in the atoning work of Christ, and by faith accepts forgiveness for sins that are past. At that point we willingly place our faith in the promise of God to aide us in making right choices, believing what He has promised when he says that “there is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, who will with the temptation make a way of escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” As we yield our wills in allegiance to God’s promise of aide, the enemy of our souls and our selfish will with all the force of past habits and warped propensities is defeated in that we recognize that with the Lord’s promised influences we are well able to do that which God commands.

I am asking about the "change our nature" not necessarily the change in our relationship with God. You already stated that our sinful nature is comprised of BOTH our internal-inherited desire "propensity" to sin as well as our aqcuired habbits toward sin. Are you saying that there is "no change in our nature" at the New Birth - just a change in our relationship to God and His willingness to "aid us" in the battle against sin?

No "NEW Creation"??



Quote:
BR: #3. What is the difference in the "nature" of the person pre-conversion vs post conversion?

HP: Pre- conversion we are willingly yielding our wills in accordance to selfish desires and propensities. Subsequent to or post conversion we should be willingly yielding our wills in conformity to God’s known will, relying on God’s proffered help and strength to act in accordance to love towards God and our fellowman.

Change in our attitude -- but no change in our "nature"??

HP

In salvation God, through faith, frees us from the bondage of our sinful natures, formed by the willing of our wills to selfishness, wiping out the guilt and punishment rightfully incurred.

If in either case we are free to "will" either to serve God or serve sin - (pre-conversion and post-convesion) then how is the previous state "bondage"?? How -- from what are we "freed" in terms of bondage??

As we are freed from the guilt and penalty of past sins,

Freed from debt -- ok

But what about the slavery - the bondage?

we by faith are enabled to willingly pursue righteousness, joy and peace. We are given a new nature

So you are saying that BEFORE the new birth we were not "enabled" to pursue righteousness? The new birth "enables" us through faith to make right choices?

, a clean slate, free from the guilt of past

Ok free from guilt -- that part I think I get in your model.

It is the "change in nature" and the "ability" (what is ENABLED vs what WAS DISABLED prior to the new Birth) that I am trying to get you to define in your model.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: So you are saying our fallen nature -- our sinful nature has two parts to it.

#1. that which we "acquire" in this life through yielding to sin
#2. that which we are born with - (internal desire-propsenity/tendancy) to sin?

HP: Yes.

BR: How did mankind come to get the fallen-sinful nature that we are born with?

HP: The evil effects of these natural propensities started with the advent of sin and God shortening the lifespan of man. The new birth is to a large degree a mystery. Just the same there are some things we do in fact understand with our hearts and minds. Nature, in its most common usage, speaks to the natural, to the physical. We acquire our natural propensities from our natural parents. If we are born with a natural propensity, it is a given that it comes to us as a product of our physical makeup and that from our parents. We are certainly born physically depraved as a product of the human race in which the effects of sin have been passed on to us by natural generation as a physical descendent of our parents.

BR: How "strong" is it according to Scripure? Where do you find it in scripture?

HP: Very strong, yet just the same it cannot be so strong that it forces or coerces the will, eliminating free will IF God blames, praises, or punishes man for their actions. No doubt many are born completely enslaved to the natural propensities they are born with. We would classify those individuals as mentally handicapped, or mentally impaired. We might place such individuals in protective custody so as to protect themselves from themselves and to ensure the safety of others around them in certain instances, yet no reasonable just person would hold them eternally accountable for circumstances beyond their control. We pity such cases as this, but do not hold them morally accountable for their actions, at least in a fair and just society. Such individuals are not moral agents, and such are not accountable to moral law. Scripture illustrates this point by the following passages. “To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Understanding of the intrinsic value of the command is at the heart of moral accountability. Scripture also tells us that “where there is no law, sin is not imputed.” If one has absolutely no comprehension of what is required, God does not hold them morally accountable.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
BR: #2. What change takes place "in our nature" at conversion using your model?

HP: You define what you mean by 'in our nature,' or the nature you believe we are born with and what it consists of, and then I will know better how to respond to your questions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dustin: I think Wesley was a very decieved man and his theology is dangerous, not to mention horrible. I believe he decieved a lot of people with his horrible theology.

HP: Those are indeed some railing accusations you throw out at a man used mightily of God. I for one believe that if you are to throw out such utter contempt with what is up until this point mere baseless allegations, you owe the list a clear explanation of those charges.

Possibly you might read the title of this thread before you respond, and then tell us how your words fit the word 'charity.'

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding the inherited sinful nature - inherited moral weakness - inherited tendancy to sin

Quote:
BR: How "strong" is it according to Scripure? Where do you find it in scripture?

HP: Very strong, yet just the same it cannot be so strong that it forces or coerces the will, eliminating free will IF God blames, praises, or punishes man for their actions. No doubt many are born completely enslaved to the natural propensities they are born with. We would classify those individuals as mentally handicapped, or mentally impaired. We might place such individuals in protective custody so as to protect themselves from themselves and to ensure the safety of others around them in certain instances, yet no reasonable just person would hold them eternally accountable for circumstances beyond their control. We pity such cases as this, but do not hold them morally accountable for their actions, at least in a fair and just society. Such individuals are not moral agents, and such are not accountable to moral law. Scripture illustrates this point by the following passages. “To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Understanding of the intrinsic value of the command is at the heart of moral accountability. Scripture also tells us that “where there is no law, sin is not imputed.” If one has absolutely no comprehension of what is required, God does not hold them morally accountable.

But the question is more to the "inherited sinful nature" that you admit tha we get from birth. Where do you find the Bible speaking to that inherited desire to sin that we all have and telling us "how strong it is"?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

From post 19

There was a list posted on the board that looked something like this

"you can not be saved if you believe anything in the following list..." and then the person gave some "list"

some things either IN the list or later ADDED to the list includeded things like this --

1. Allowing women to speak in church vs insisting that they be silent.
2. Allow spiritual gifts as seen in 1Cor 14 in church after the 2nd century A.D.
3. Belief in the 10 Commandments including an un-edited 4th commandment.
4. various interpretations for the 2300 day prophecy in Dan 8


But we could add --

5. Rejection of the Trinity
6. Rejection of the Genesis as a "trustworthy account" of God lierally Creating all life on earth. God creating sinless perfect Adam and God as divine direct creator of all life on earth.
7. Rejecting Gospel foundation "God so love the WORLD that He gave"
8. Belief in hell as a kind of 1000 year purgatory leading to heaven.
9 Belief that God deliberately creates our children to enjoy roasting them in eternal hell - as his purpose in creating them.
10. Belief in praying to - the dead
11 belief in worshipping bread as if it were God
12 justifying the torture and killing of fellow Christians -- calling the heretics.
13. Saying that all other Christian churches are "not really Christian":

Basically - we have discussed a LOT of things where "differences" exist

Dustin gives us post 22 that appears to have relevance to this point I raised

Fittingly numbered -- 666 for Dustin


It had to be Wesley...


I think Wesley was a very decieved man and his theology is dangerous, not to mention horrible. I believe he decieved a lot of people with his horrible theology.

Just show me from the Bible where it says there is an age of accoutibility.

Leave Wesley in the grave where he should be.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Dustin]

HP: Those are indeed some railing accusations you throw out at a man used mightily of God. I for one believe that if you are to throw out such utter contempt with what is up until this point mere baseless allegations, you owe the list a clear explanation of those charges.

Possibly you might read the title of this thread before you respond, and then tell us how your words fit the word 'charity.'

Utter contempt? I don't know, I didn't think it was THAT bad.

Strong disagreement with Wesley? Absolutly!

Wesley's doctrine of "entire sanctification", "preveinient grace" and his joke of an argument about predestination are clear evidence that the man had little understanding of the Scriptures. Those are the two that poke out in my mind right now, but there are many others.

You can read them here:http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/topic.htm

That's a bunch of his sermons posted at the Wesley Center website.

I wouldn't base any conclusion made in this discussion on what John Wesley says.

Again, all I ask is that you show me from the Bible where it says there is an age of accountibility, not what John Wesley thinks it says.

 

[BobRyan]

To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not to HIM IT IS SIN - James 4:17

Whatever is not of FAITH is sin Rom 14:23

Wesley is rock solid with scripture - as usual.

James 4:17
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Isaiah 7:15-16
15"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.
16"For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.


Wesley 10 -- Calvinists 0

 

[Dustin]

To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not to HIM IT IS SIN - James 4:17

Whatever is not of FAITH is sin Rom 14:23

Wesley is rock solid with scripture - as usual.

Wesley 10 -- Calvinists 0

I don't follow the point your making. I'm doing about 7 things at once, sorry.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[BobRyan]

The "age of accountability" has to do with the Child mastering abstract concepts like the knowledge of right and wrong.

 

[Dustin]

The "age of accountability" has to do with the Child mastering abstract concepts like the knowledge of right and wrong.

OK, I got that.

What is the immediate context of those verses, and do you have anymore?


Dustin

 

[BobRyan]

How many do you need?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: The "age of accountability" has to do with the Child mastering abstract concepts like the knowledge of right and wrong

HP: Not simply mastering abstract concepts such as right and wrong, but understanding them according to their intrinsic worth, apart from punishment or rewards. (Unless that is what you mean by ‘mastering’ )

A dog can master certain behavior that is acceptable or unacceptable, but an animal, not being a moral agent, does not master or understand the intrinsic value of the demands or commands. It only reacts to punishment or praise.

That is how we begin to train our children, but we hope that in doing so they come to a place in understanding the intrinsic worth of our demands.

The age of accountability is when one knows right from wrong due to their intrinsic values apart from punishment or rewards.