In Jesus Christ, A New Creation

[OldRegular]

There are a number of people on this Forum, including pastors, who seem to have tha attitude that those members living in adultery or fornication, or perhaps other grievous sin, should be counseled rather than disciplined. One says:

We, as a church, have taken the position that couples cohabitating are absolutely welcome to be part of our church. We want them to attend services. We want them to have their lives changed. We want them to live in purity...apart from each other for a season. Here's the thing about people "living in sin" they don't get better if we isolate ourselves from them or them from us and point fingers at them.

Again, we have a pretty thorough covenant membership process where we consider carefully members for our church. When (notice its not an "if") find a couple who is cohabitating we sit down with them and talk about our standards for life, show them where those standards are in the Bible, and ask them to prayerfully consider moving out for a season before they are married. We make tons of options available to them. We've even put up guys in an extended stay hotel for up to three months to help them along.

The facts are simple: if you're between 22 - 35 in the US you're more likely to not be married than married; in that demographic 75% of couples living together before marriage (churched and unchurched); 90% have had or are having a relationship where they are sexually intimate; in this age demographic the number of unmarried new moms is at 55% last year.

The entire culture isn't shifting anymore...it has shifted.

If your church is doing the kind of ministry that attracts people far from Christ who want to be near to Christ we have to realize that cohabitation is an accepted practiced for the vast majority of Americans.

How are you going to change your ministry model to minister to that change?

As we try to minister to these people, we begin in grace and show them love while maintaining the standard of purity set before us. Most people coming into your church who are under the age of 40 have a completely different understanding of sexuality than those over 40.

Our hope is that by being authentic and loving these couples they will, as some have, embrace a better day and a better way. We can't bury our heads in the sand. We lovingly confront those who are sin in private, then with a minister. We gently correct and teach righteousness. And by doing, show the love and grace of Christ.

Now it really makes no difference whether one is 22, 35, or 65, sin is sin, but until one is confronted with his sin and confesses his sin it is unlikely that he will change. Scripture tells us this very clearly:

1 John 1:5-10
5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And the response, not to the Scripture, but the rather long quote above::

Amen!! It's hard because we can take the complete legalistic route - and most likely not have hearts and lives changed. But we will be standing on the truth, darn it!! Or we can be like Jesus, show grace, speak the truth in love and challenge people to get their lives to change by the power of the Gospel.

Jesus Christ did not challenge people to get their lives to change. If I can read, and I believe I can, Jesus Christ changed people:

2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

In the "new birth" we are a new creation in Jesus Christ, our lives are supposed to be changed. If two people are shacking up, supposedly have an experience of grace, and continue to shack up then they have no evidence that they have undergone a salvation experience.

What say you, the Baptist Board?

 

[nodak]

I say you are absolutely right.

And I pine for the day when the church spoke the truth rather than tried to keep the unsaved from being ticked off at the church.

 

[OldRegular]

I say you are absolutely right.

And I pine for the day when the church spoke the truth rather than tried to keep the unsaved from being ticked off at the church.

Sadly that seems to be the primary focus of the Church of this day!

 

[Old Union Brother]

Sadly that seems to be the primary focus of the Church of this day!

Very sad it is. When good church order becomes offensive it is a shame.

 

[Old Union Brother]

This may not be the place for this but:

I try to stand on what says the word of God and to conduct my life that way. Sometimes I forget the following:

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

These scriptures do not mean to uphold everything or take anything that is dished our for peace sake. A church must keep good order and if that takes church discipline then so be it.

 

[Zaac]

Old Regular has quoted someone else as saying:

We, as a church, have taken the position that couples cohabitating are absolutely welcome to be part of our church. We want them to attend services. We want them to have their lives changed. We want them to live in purity...apart from each other for a season. Here's the thing about people "living in sin" they don't get better if we isolate ourselves from them or them from us and point fingers at them.

Help us Jesus!!!

NO!NO!NO! If you want to come to the church, come on. But if you are not willing to correct a sin that's been pointed out prior to joining the church, you DEFINITELY should not be allowed to join.

Likewis if folks are members of the church already and they are doing this, it needs to be corrected through the Biblical process. And if they do not want to adhere, remove them from the church.

 

[convicted1]

There are a number of people on this Forum, including pastors, who seem to have tha attitude that those members living in adultery or fornication, or perhaps other grievous sin, should be counseled rather than disciplined. One says:



Now it really makes no difference whether one is 22, 35, or 65, sin is sin, but until one is confronted with his sin and confesses his sin it is unlikely that he will change. Scripture tells us this very clearly:



And the response, not to the Scripture, but the rather long quote above::



Jesus Christ did not challenge people to get their lives to change. If I can read, and I believe I can, Jesus Christ changed people:



In the "new birth" we are a new creation in Jesus Christ, our lives are supposed to be changed. If two people are shacking up, supposedly have an experience of grace, and continue to shack up then they have no evidence that they have undergone a salvation experience.

What say you, the Baptist Board?

SPOT ON!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

This may not be the place for this but:

I try to stand on what says the word of God and to conduct my life that way. Sometimes I forget the following:



These scriptures do not mean to uphold everything or take anything that is dished our for peace sake. A church must keep good order and if that takes church discipline then so be it.

And you know Brother Jeff, keeping a church in good working order is a strenuous process at times. When someone, who claims they are, but aren't, confronting them with it would have to be hard to a certain extent. What I mean is that words can be said that hurt both sides, families can have fallouts with one another, etc. It needs to be done.....it's like pruning a tree...if you don't lop off the bad limbs, the whole tree will die. I am thankful that in my almost six years, I have never had to confront someone about this. I was a new member, and another member, who had a viable means of transport, who had been seen at other places, weren't showing up at church for quite a while. They sent a committee to them, after several attempts to talk to them, and I reckon they stated to take their name off the church book. I have seen them since this happened in 2007, and they still show no signs of ever had even a taste of Grace. The members that went to them, they dreaded it like the "black plague", but knew it had to be done.

 

[12strings]

Help us Jesus!!!

NO!NO!NO! If you want to come to the church, come on. But if you are not willing to correct a sin that's been pointed out prior to joining the church, you DEFINITELY should not be allowed to join.

Likewis if folks are members of the church already and they are doing this, it needs to be corrected through the Biblical process. And if they do not want to adhere, remove them from the church.

You do realize he is saying that these couples are NOT church members, right...he's saying we want them to attend, learn of their error, and stop it...if they don't they won't be allowed to join the church. He also says they DO confront their sin, following a Matthew 18 model...so where's the problem?

 

[salzer mtn]

This couseling mentality has worked it's way into other systems other than the church. As a example the court system. People on the jury, if a person is proven guilty, are not interested in the person being convicted as much as why did he do it, did he come from a broken home, was he abused as a child, did poverty lead him to kill, did his mother pay as much attention to him as she did his siblings. The jury all wants to be case workers, as in the first trial of the Menendez brothers that killed their parents, it was a hung jury.

 

[kyredneck]

...
Now it really makes no difference whether one is 22, 35, or 65, sin is sin, but until one is confronted with his sin and confesses his sin it is unlikely that he will change....

How old do you reckon David was when he fell into his grevious sin? I'd say at least in his sixties. But it wasn't 'the church' that 'disciplined' him, it was God:

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the word of Jehovah, to do that which is evil in his sight? thou hast smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 2 Sam 12

Don't get me wrong, I'm entirely for 'church discipline', I've witnessed the Primitives discipline their own to their own hurt, my point is whether the church does it or not there is no escape for His children from being recompensed from above for their deeds, NOW in this temporal realm, it's clearly demonstrated all throughout the scriptures:

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you. Mt 7

 

[OldRegular]

Help us Jesus!!!

NO!NO!NO! If you want to come to the church, come on. But if you are not willing to correct a sin that's been pointed out prior to joining the church, you DEFINITELY should not be allowed to join.

Likewis if folks are members of the church already and they are doing this, it needs to be corrected through the Biblical process. And if they do not want to adhere, remove them from the church.

Zaac you have deliberately attributed a post to me that you know is false. That is the behavior of a reprobate!

 

[annsni]

Help us Jesus!!!

NO!NO!NO! If you want to come to the church, come on. But if you are not willing to correct a sin that's been pointed out prior to joining the church, you DEFINITELY should not be allowed to join.

Likewis if folks are members of the church already and they are doing this, it needs to be corrected through the Biblical process. And if they do not want to adhere, remove them from the church.

He actually said that they do NOT join the church but that they are a part of it - in other words attending the services and possibly taking part in study as well.

Note that he does not ignore the sin but instead deals with it gently to a population that has just not had this teaching:

As we try to minister to these people, we begin in grace and show them love while maintaining the standard of purity set before us.

.....

Our hope is that by being authentic and loving these couples they will, as some have, embrace a better day and a better way. We can't bury our heads in the sand. We lovingly confront those who are sin in private, then with a minister. We gently correct and teach righteousness. And by doing, show the love and grace of Christ.

 

[Zaac]

You do realize he is saying that these couples are NOT church members, right...he's saying we want them to attend, learn of their error, and stop it...if they don't they won't be allowed to join the church. He also says they DO confront their sin, following a Matthew 18 model...so where's the problem?

I guess I misunderstood because I read "a part of the church".

This is one where you have to be really careful. We should invite folks, but we must not lose sight that the Church is for the Body of BELIEVERS.

I've found that ministering to non-believers is much more effective OUTSIDE the church. People seem to respond better when they are being loved on and they don't feel like it's necessarily about the church---the place.

So there's on the face not much harm in them attending as you said. But they are responsible for everything they hear, and that's a dangerous thing for someone who still rejects CHrist.

 

[Zaac]

Zaac you have deliberately attributed a post to me that you know is false. That is the behavior of a reprobate!

Oh calm down already. :laugh: I copied the quote from your post and had not meant to copy the quote tag with your name in it.

 

[MB]

My church welcomes all especially the lost. We don't try to correct the sins of people who aren't saved. It isn't our position to do that. I believe this is the work of the Spirit. If they claim they are saved and try to join the church it's another matter. We encourage them to accept Christ first. Sinners aren't going to stop sinning on there own. It seems to me that a Church that attempts to correct someone of something they have done when they aren't saved is ridiculous. Most likely they aren't saved if they are living in sin. Our mission isn't just to congregate together but to lead others to Christ. This comes before our own comfort. How can someone be called an evangelist and not evangelize?

This also makes me think of those who are divorced and remarried. According to scripture they are living in sin and yet some of them are the Pastors. I guess it's ok for them after all, they are Pastors.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

You do realize he is saying that these couples are NOT church members, right...he's saying we want them to attend, learn of their error, and stop it...if they don't they won't be allowed to join the church. He also says they DO confront their sin, following a Matthew 18 model...so where's the problem?

ALL sinners are welcomed to attend my church, and we will greet and give them the love of the lord, but once they rrealise and know the standards God has for them in lifestyles, at that time need to decide to change or remain the same!