In the world but not of the world

[Dave]

I have a question to pose to the group regarding separation from the world....

When is the church too much like the world? Or to put it another way, shouldn't the church be distinguishable from the world?

If we imitate all of the worlds forms of "music" then are we staying separate?

I am asking for honest opinions here. In sending our daughter to a Christian school we thought to protect her from some of the worst influences in our society, yet the music teacher gave the class an assignment to create and perform a gospel RAP. As we know this is a ghetto form of music, and most often associated with extremely bad influences. What are your thoughts?

 

[OldRegular]

I believe that many churches are inviting the world into the church as vigorously as they possibly can. One of the easiest seems to be to adapt the various forms of music so popular with the younger age group. Then of course the "worship" service must be constructed around the music and behold the "contemporary worship service"! It does not necessarily follow that this leads to the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle but the young people to whom the music program caters are much more amenable to the homosexual lifestyle than their elders; so who controls the church. Sadly for many church leaders it is the young people though I doubt they contribute little in any way to the church.

 

[mont974x4]

The choice of style of music is subjective. What is important is truth. I am not a fan of all styles of music, but I do enjoy a variety. What needs to be asked regarding music concerns content. Does it relay biblical truth?

Of course, that must be asked about our sermons, our Bible studies, and our counseling too.

Compromising on truth is how churches become worldly. They decide it's more important to not offend people than it is not offend God. That's how sin, and the acceptance of it, has become the norm in churches.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Compromising on truth is how churches become worldly. They decide it's more important to not offend people than it is not offend God. That's how sin, and the acceptance of it, has become the norm in churches.

Exactly. The choice of a music style, how (or whether to) to celebrate certain holidays, who to vote for, etc. MUST be based upon God's truth and not upon one's personal interpretation (and oft-times misapplication) thereof.

 

[righteousdude2]

My Wife and I Have Done this...

...we sing songs that are made up of secular tunes from the 60s, 70s and 80s. The music is unchanged, but the words have been changed to lift up Jesus and minister to those listening. It is extremely popular, and we have been fantastic alter calls [some of the response is due to my testimony, but the music caught the people off guard, and lowered their inhibitions, making them easier to reach].

We have song's titles: Pastor Oop; Churchin' USA; I'm a Believer: It's Late; Johnny B Goode; I Wanna Know What Love Is; The Greed Goes On, etc.

One of my courses in church music history taught me that most of the hymns in today's hymnals were written to bar tunes and secular tunes from the day. Something like we've done without music.
So, I've come to the conclusion/opinion and it is solely mine, I'm in the world, and I've taken what the world meant for bad and through the Holy Ghost, I've turned it around for His good.

Something like me. I was once in the world, but now, because of what Jesus did for me, I know born-again, turned toward a new direction, and the song within me is now glorifying God.

 

[Salty]

There is nothing wrong with a ship in the sea. The problem happens when the sea gets into the ship

 

[OldRegular]

There is nothing wrong with a ship in the sea. The problem happens when the sea gets into the ship

Very pithy Salty, very pithy. Bill O'Reilly would be proud of you!

 

[Salty]

Very pithy Salty, very pithy. Bill O'Reilly would be proud of you!

Preacher used that years ago in one of his messages
(probally when your username was newregular)

 

[12strings]

I have a question to pose to the group regarding separation from the world....

When is the church too much like the world? Or to put it another way, shouldn't the church be distinguishable from the world?

If we imitate all of the worlds forms of "music" then are we staying separate?

I am asking for honest opinions here. In sending our daughter to a Christian school we thought to protect her from some of the worst influences in our society, yet the music teacher gave the class an assignment to create and perform a gospel RAP. As we know this is a ghetto form of music, and most often associated with extremely bad influences. What are your thoughts?

I would say we should be different from the world in all the ways that scripture says we should be different, but not worry as much about being different in ways not specified in scripture.

Regarding rap, associations are often powerful, it is not sinful (sinful being defined here as prohibited by God's Word) in itself to speak the Gospel message in Rythm over a beat. There is the tendancy, especially for girls, when moving to music to imiate the suggestive dancing they have seen on TV, which should be warned against. However, I do not believe, like some, that such types of dancing is caused by a certain beat of music...rather it is learned. Young girls who have not been exposed to seeing this type of dancing will, even when hearing rock and rap, bounce up and down naturally to the music rather than swinging their hips in circles.

Each person must respond as they believe they should, but were I in your situation (and I probably will be in about 11 years)...I would draw lines with my daughter where scripture draws them, and not cause frustration by telling her something is sinful that God himself does not say is sinful. I WOULD talk to her about the way she dresses and moves her body, so that she can be modest, even while rapping in her classroom.

 

[12strings]

One of my courses in church music history taught me that most of the hymns in today's hymnals were written to bar tunes and secular tunes from the day.

I think it's more accurate to say SOME of church music in history has tunes borrowed from secular folk tunes. The vast majority of the songs in the hymnal have tunes written for Church purposes.

BTW, the old rumor about Martin Luther using "Bar songs" is a misunderstanding...He wrote some songs in the "bar" form (a musical form that follows the patter AAB)...Not that it would be sinful if He did...I know a very nice contemporary song written to the tune of "O Danny Boy."

 

[Yeshua1]

I have a question to pose to the group regarding separation from the world....

When is the church too much like the world? Or to put it another way, shouldn't the church be distinguishable from the world?

If we imitate all of the worlds forms of "music" then are we staying separate?

I am asking for honest opinions here. In sending our daughter to a Christian school we thought to protect her from some of the worst influences in our society, yet the music teacher gave the class an assignment to create and perform a gospel RAP. As we know this is a ghetto form of music, and most often associated with extremely bad influences. What are your thoughts?

Think the biblcal modela are Jesus/paul in regards to this, as Jesus was willing to engage the 'sinners" in their own versions of "house of ill repute", and paul was to Jews a Jew, to Gentiles as a gentile...

We need to learn to balance being among those who need jesus, yet w/o condoning/partaking of their behaviours!

And Music to me is neautral, IF done unto theLord, is sacred, wether as Church hymn or a Christian Rap!

 

[Bronconagurski]

I have a question to pose to the group regarding separation from the world....

When is the church too much like the world? Or to put it another way, shouldn't the church be distinguishable from the world?

If we imitate all of the worlds forms of "music" then are we staying separate?

I am asking for honest opinions here. In sending our daughter to a Christian school we thought to protect her from some of the worst influences in our society, yet the music teacher gave the class an assignment to create and perform a gospel RAP. As we know this is a ghetto form of music, and most often associated with extremely bad influences. What are your thoughts?

Grace Baptist Bible College is having their annual Bible Conference at Marshall Baptist Church in Winston Salem. Their theme is "Baptists: Living in the World, But Not of It." Dr. Larry Oats from Maranatha Seminary spoke first about how worldliness is not necessarily a list, but an attitude or spirt if you will. In other words, a kid can go to Christian School and obey every rule, only to leave and live wordly. We can obedient, but not submissive. We obey the rules, but wish we didn't have to, etc. Worldliness makes our love for the Father grow dim. We can't serve two masters. There was a lot more. Pastor Donnie Oates from Vandalia Baptist in Greensboro, N.C. spoke next about the priesthood of the believer. Finally, Dr. George Houghton from Faith Baptist Seminary spoke about Baptist Distinctives, specifically on the local church. He will be bring a message tonight and 2 tomorrow on Baptist Distinctives once again. The man is a theologian who can give you more in 30 minutes than some can all day. It was a blessing, so I am going back tonight and tomorrow. All are invited. It's at Marshall Bapist Church, 5739 Old Rural Hall Road, Winston Salem, NC 27105. Times are 7-9 pm in evenings, and 8:30 - 12 noon tomorrow morning.

 

[Yeshua1]

Grace Baptist Bible College is having their annual Bible Conference at Marshall Baptist Church in Winston Salem. Their theme is "Baptists: Living in the World, But Not of It." Dr. Larry Oats from Maranatha Seminary spoke first about how worldliness is not necessarily a list, but an attitude or spirt if you will. In other words, a kid can go to Christian School and obey every rule, only to leave and live wordly. We can obedient, but not submissive. We obey the rules, but wish we didn't have to, etc. Worldliness makes our love for the Father grow dim. We can't serve two masters. There was a lot more. Pastor Donnie Oates from Vandalia Baptist in Greensboro, N.C. spoke next about the priesthood of the believer. Finally, Dr. George Houghton from Faith Baptist Seminary spoke about Baptist Distinctives, specifically on the local church. He will be bring a message tonight and 2 tomorrow on Baptist Distinctives once again. The man is a theologian who can give you more in 30 minutes than some can all day. It was a blessing, so I am going back tonight and tomorrow. All are invited. It's at Marshall Bapist Church, 5739 Old Rural Hall Road, Winston Salem, NC 27105. Times are 7-9 pm in evenings, and 8:30 - 12 noon tomorrow morning.

jesus and paul seemed to indicate that the greater danger is NOT that Christians try to stay distant and apart from sinners, but that we would stay chummy with those among us naming jesus, yet willingly living as sinners would!

 

[Dave]

Well, my thinking on this is that (despite the fact that perhaps some of the hymns in the traditional hymnal came from bar songs) we lose something when we adopt so much of the world's methods. If the message is getting lost in the too loud music competing with the vocal, or the association with a form that is mostly associated with anti-establishment, angry rants, then I tend to think it inappropriate to defend it using the reasoning that the words are the whole story.

I don't mean to imply that it is sinful per se, so much as questionable judgement. To me, using dance music, or worse to house the gospel message not only gives an impression that this type of music is acceptable in other forms, but worse, may lead our own children, who are not necessarily as discerning toward that form of music to their detriment.

Compromising on truth is how churches become apostate. I think worldliness is broader than that.

 

[Monster]

Well, my thinking on this is that (despite the fact that perhaps some of the hymns in the traditional hymnal came from bar songs) we lose something when we adopt so much of the world's methods. If the message is getting lost in the too loud music competing with the vocal, or the association with a form that is mostly associated with anti-establishment, angry rants, then I tend to think it inappropriate to defend it using the reasoning that the words are the whole story.

I don't mean to imply that it is sinful per se, so much as questionable judgement. To me, using dance music, or worse to house the gospel message not only gives an impression that this type of music is acceptable in other forms, but worse, may lead our own children, who are not necessarily as discerning toward that form of music to their detriment.

Compromising on truth is how churches become apostate. I think worldliness is broader than that.

The problem you run into is that it's unlikely to find any form or style of music that hasn't been used in a worldly fashion. The same would go for instruments, including the voice.

I'm happy to admit that I can't stand contemporary worship music in church, no mater how well it's presented. I just don't like it. Give me "The Old Rugged Cross" or "How Great Thou Art" over "As The Deer" or "How Great Is Our God" etc... That's no criteria for how sacred or secular either is, it's my personal preference.

I compose, play and sing music. I like composing most of all, but I'd guess that most people would call what I do decomposing...I'm not very good at any of it. BUT, in all my time and experience doing it, I've not found any inherent worldliness in form or function. Notes, chord progressions, timing and composition are (to name a few) just tool-like elements one would use or put together to communicate something bigger.

I'm not sure I made any real sense here :BangHead:

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem you run into is that it's unlikely to find any form or style of music that hasn't been used in a worldly fashion. The same would go for instruments, including the voice.

I'm happy to admit that I can't stand contemporary worship music in church, no mater how well it's presented. I just don't like it. Give me "The Old Rugged Cross" or "How Great Thou Art" over "As The Deer" or "How Great Is Our God" etc... That's no criteria for how sacred or secular either is, it's my personal preference.

I compose, play and sing music. I like composing most of all, but I'd guess that most people would call what I do decomposing...I'm not very good at any of it. BUT, in all my time and experience doing it, I've not found any inherent worldliness in form or function. Notes, chord progressions, timing and composition are (to name a few) just tool-like elements one would use or put together to communicate something bigger.

I'm not sure I made any real sense here :BangHead:

God looks upon the heart, and if the person is singing it to glorify the lord, or is "secular " music only!

Someone like Elvis can sing his herat and soul into "How Graet thou Art", so can a randy travis sing to the Lord, and God will take those as being "unto Him"

how many times do ALL of us sing "unto the Lord" , yet minds elesewhere, or else we are not really willing to do what the song describes?

I can even see jesus taking his Apostles to a karokeke bar, and have some fun listening to peter singing!

 

[ShagNappy]

Well, my thinking on this is that (despite the fact that perhaps some of the hymns in the traditional hymnal came from bar songs) we lose something when we adopt so much of the world's methods. If the message is getting lost in the too loud music competing with the vocal, or the association with a form that is mostly associated with anti-establishment, angry rants, then I tend to think it inappropriate to defend it using the reasoning that the words are the whole story.

I don't mean to imply that it is sinful per se, so much as questionable judgement. To me, using dance music, or worse to house the gospel message not only gives an impression that this type of music is acceptable in other forms, but worse, may lead our own children, who are not necessarily as discerning toward that form of music to their detriment.

Compromising on truth is how churches become apostate. I think worldliness is broader than that.

Studying music appreciation at Luther Rice this semester. Just got done reading about the change in church musical styles in the late 1600's and early 1700's to hymns. An argument much like this was used for any suggested change.

A Particular Baptist minister, Benjamin Keach, in 1673, for the first time convinced his congregation to sing a hymn at the end of communion based on the gospel account of the last supper. Almost split the Particular Baptists the controversy was so great. Hymns then didn't even have musical accompaniment.

It was silly then, and it's silly now. Nothing more than people believing their way is God's way and hating change.

 

[salzer mtn]

I have a question to pose to the group regarding separation from the world....

When is the church too much like the world? Or to put it another way, shouldn't the church be distinguishable from the world?

If we imitate all of the worlds forms of "music" then are we staying separate?

I am asking for honest opinions here. In sending our daughter to a Christian school we thought to protect her from some of the worst influences in our society, yet the music teacher gave the class an assignment to create and perform a gospel RAP. As we know this is a ghetto form of music, and most often associated with extremely bad influences. What are your thoughts?

A person can step into a church and listen to what songs the congregation sings and pretty much tell you what they believe in doctrine. The songs of choice that bless my soul are songs of my blessed redeemer who died for me. I care not for songs that exalt man like, stand up for Jesus or I want to be a soul winner for Jesus. Songs are not worth singing if they don't exalt and glorify and praise Him in whom my soul belongs. Songs of heaven don't do anything for me if they take the place of hyms like Jesus lover of my soul. I find as my journey down here is coming to a close, i want to sing about Him and His marvelous grace.

 

[Salty]

A person can step into a church and listen to what songs the congregation sings and pretty much tell you what they believe in doctrine. ... I care not for songs that exalt man like, stand up for Jesus or ... Songs are not worth singing if they don't exalt and glorify and praise Him ...

OK :tonofbricks:

 

[annsni]

I have a question to pose to the group regarding separation from the world....

When is the church too much like the world? Or to put it another way, shouldn't the church be distinguishable from the world?

If we imitate all of the worlds forms of "music" then are we staying separate?

I am asking for honest opinions here. In sending our daughter to a Christian school we thought to protect her from some of the worst influences in our society, yet the music teacher gave the class an assignment to create and perform a gospel RAP. As we know this is a ghetto form of music, and most often associated with extremely bad influences. What are your thoughts?

In my opinion, the issue is the heart and from the heart, behavior comes.

But rap? There is some awesome rap out there that glorifies God. It's not just a "ghetto" form of music. Look up LeCrae. I've met the man, his wife and two kids. He's such a godly guy and what a heart for spreading the Gospel amongst a group that just will not connect to me - a middle aged white girl from the suburbs. I'm not into rap myself but I know some of these guys and I would recommend them to anyone.