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Featured In what manner was Adam created/made

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Jul 28, 2023.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    מוֹת תָּמֽוּת

    From Gen 2:17 dying thou dost die

    Had Adam not eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would the following verse have applied.

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
    For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:50,51,53

    Consider; Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

    Would Adam have been in need of being changed?
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Adam would always have needed to be changed from his fleshly body, as God decreed the fall.

    It is only by man falling into sin that he could then be redeemed by having the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to him. The state of innocence in which Adam was created can't hold the flicker of a candle to being made perfectly righteous in Christ.
     
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  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    To further clarify my point about the righteousness of the Creator being greater than the righteousness of the creature, I quote from Robert Hawker's The Poor Man's Morning and Evening Portions, on December 21, Morning discussing Psalms 69:4:

    God's glory was taken away by sin; and consequently, man's happiness also. For when Adam sinned, he robbed God of his glory, and robbed himself and all his posterity of God's image, and with it all happiness. Nay, my soul, thou hast done the same, in every renewed act of disobedience. And in breaking the divine law thou hast justly lost the divine favour. And hath Jesus, all precious Jesus, restored all these? Yes, blessings on his name, he hath! And what renders it ten-fold more gracious, he hath so done it as never to be lost any more. By his finished work of salvation he hath restored to God his glory. And by his obedience and death, as our Surety, he hath restored to man his happiness. The favour of God we lost by sin; Jesus hath restored it, by justifying us in his righteousness. The image of God we lost by rebellion; Jesus hath restored to us this image, in sanctifying us by his holiness. So that every way, and in all things, Jesus hath made up the breach; and the poor sinner who is led by grace to believe in Jesus, stands more complete and secure now; than before the fall. For if Adam had never sinned, nor his children in him, yet, after all, their righteousness before God would have been but the righteousness of creatures. Whereas now, in Jesus, the believer stands accepted and secured in the righteousness of the Creator. Hail, then, thou Almighty Restorer of our fallen nature! In thee, Lord, would my poor soul triumphantly say, "have I righteousness and strength; even to thee shall men come; and all that believe in thee shall never be ashamed nor confounded, world without end."
     
    #3 KenH, Jul 28, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2023
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  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Paul’s audience, (his “brethren”, in 1 Corinthians 15), were living in a world seeped in sin. They would have been fully acquainted with corruption and death.

    So to answer your question,
    Had Adam not sinned that passage might never have been written.
    God created humans so they might commune with him.

    But as Ken noted, God’s purpose ultimately included man’s fall from innocence and he purposed an even higher position for mankind, that we might be called sons of God.

    Rob
     
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  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Let me ask this way. Because of statements as these;
    knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 1 Peter 1:18-20
    All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:9

    Was Adam not created/made in a manner relative to the need of re-creation?

    It appears to me that before/from the foundation of the world God was going to send, himself, in the manner of the one created in his image, Adam, for a specific purpose that would also result in the one created in his image, Adam, being redeemed from something and or someone, thus, into the kingdom of God as a new creation.
     
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    1 John 3:8 first part he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, < Heb 2:14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- > 1 John 3:8 last part - that he may break up the works of the devil;
     
  7. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Speculative theology... no solid answers

    Was Adam created with or without the quality of eternal life?
    We can only speculate.
    But if mankind was created mortal, then there would have been a need.​
    Rob
     
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    @Deacon

    From Heb 2:6,7 and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, 'What is man, [Adam] that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers,
    Heb 2:14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he [Jesus the Son of God] himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he [Jesus the Son of God] might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

    Was Adam created of the manner of which, that through [the] death he [Jesus the Son of God] might destroy him having the power of [the] death -- that is, the devil --

    I inserted [the] only because methinks it is in the Greek yet knowing, no Greek, I know not whether it matters or not.

    Was Adam created subject to death for the above purpose and also for the purpose of the revelation of the sons of God?

    Consider:
    Romans 8:18-20 YLT For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us; for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; for to vanity was the creation made subject [Including Adam]-- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,

    Before the foundation of the world, what was God going to do through a man created in his own image, male and female created He, them, through the seed of the woman the female?
    Who is the seed of the woman? Interesting question of it's own. IMHO


    Was there already something/someone on the earth that needed to be destroyed before the man was created? How was it to be accomplished?
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Zero Biblical basis for any such decree.
     
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

    Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
     
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I would also like to add this writing from Samuel Richardson on the subject:

    "God willed and decreed his glory and man's happiness, therefore he willed and decreed the means to it. The end and moving cause of his willing sin to be, is for his glory, for which cause it was necessary for sin to be. If sin had not been, how should the goodness of God, in giving man eternal life in glory, have appeared, his love in sending Christ to die? If there had not been sin, there had been no need of Christ's coming, nor of his death and righteousness. Most of the great works of God in this world, and that to come, have dependence or reference to sin. How should we have lived by faith, exercised the fruits of the spirit, or have any happiness or glory in the world to come if there had been no sin? He who willeth the end, willeth those things which are necessarily referred to that end; taking away sin was decreed before the world, therefore the being of sin was decreed. — Christ's death was determined before the world, for the end of Christ was to restore Adam's fall: if Adam had not fallen, there had been no need of a Christ to restore him. The saints were chosen to life before the world; choice hath reference to the fall, therefore the fall was decreed.

    If the will of man had been the first and chief cause of the being of sin, then the will of man should be the cause of God's will, and so man shall be the original cause of the salvation of himself, and so much the cause of it, that without his will it could not have been; and so the determination of God what to do, shall not be from himself, but from the will of man, which is contrary to Ephesians 1:11. If man should will sin before God willed it, then shall the will of God depend and wait upon the will of man:—as if God should say, if man will sin, then will I will his salvation: and if God should first will to send Christ to save man, and leave it to man's will and power whether he shall fall or not, then it was possible for man to stand, and so to frustrate the decree of God; for if man had not sinned, God's decree of sending Christ had been void and of none effect. Mr. Perkins saith, God decreed the fall of Adam: if the fall was decreed, and if man had power to stand, then he had power to frustrate God's decree, which no wise man will affirm. And then that saying, that Adam had power to keep the law is without truth ; if he had, consider Ezekiel 18:2-4. God willeth all things well, he sinneth not, nor can he sin, because he is under no law. God commands men to keep the law, which no man can do; he commands men to think no vain thoughts, and not to sin. We cannot avoid some vain thoughts, and in many things we sin all, Christ saith, No man can come to me except the Father draw him, John 6:37, John 6:44. If they be drawn, they come: draw us, and we will run after thee, Song of Solomon 1:4. If I put sufficient strength to move the earth, motion must needs follow; when men sin, they are beguiled, enticed, deceived, drawn away; they like men have transgressed, Hosea 6:7.

    We are to distinguish between that which follows a doctrine in its own nature, and that which follows by accident, or rather, that a corrupt heart draws from it, and is not from the nature and working of the doctrine itself. It is strange to consider, men are so set upon the Popish principle to be saved for their works, that they count all profaneness which crosses their way. Some have burned the Bible, and Dr. Crispe's book of Salvation by Christ alone; the treatise of Mr. Archer, late of All-hallowes, London, entitled Comfort to Believers against their Sins and Sorrow, was burned by the hangman. The same spirit is alive to burn this also; I expect nothing better from such as are not taught of God; they condemn those things which they know not, and think they do God service when they persecute the truth and the professors of it."
     
    #11 KenH, Jul 31, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2023
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Does not show God decreed the fall.
     
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does. The Creator is absolutely totally sovereign over His Creation.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Saying God did what He did not do does not make it so.
     
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Denying that God is sovereign over His Creation does not make God any less sovereign than He is. We don't get to tell our Creator what He can do based on our terribly flawed, terribly corrupted judgment.

    Personally, I am thankful, so thankful, that God is absolutely totally sovereign. I would not want to live in a world in which anything happens that He did not decree, as that would leave me to the whim of the rest of fallen creation.
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    False accusations of denial of His sovereignty doesn't justify making God the author of sin.
     
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    When people say what you wrote, they are judging God, their Creator, by their own flawed, corrupted human standards. As Vincent Chung put it in his Systematic Theology:

    "There is no divine law that says God would be wrong if he were to be the cause of evil. Why, then, do men assume that it would be evil for God to be the author of sin? What law would God transgress? He would transgress the law of men, or what men have imposed upon him to define what a righteous God must or must not do. This is the sinister truth behind the religious tradition that says God is not the author of sin, for if he were to be such, it would mean that he has transgressed a law that men have declared against him. The necessary conclusion is that the doctrine that God is not the author of sin, or that it is blasphemy and heresy to say that he is, is itself the real blasphemy and heresy. Unless God is the author of sin and evil, he is not completely sovereign, and he is not God. Therefore, to deny that God is the author of sin and evil is to deny God."

    (emphasis mine)
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    God is Holy and Sovereign in all His ways. Proverbs 9:10, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
     
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  19. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Amen!
     
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  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Was Adam created/made of the flesh with the being, [soul living] of the flesh in the blood?

    I believe the answer to be yes and if that is correct, as such, could he have inherited the kingdom of God?

    Adam was always going to need the redemption of the body. IMHO
     
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