Interesting Assertion

[skypair]

...

Reading Hal Lindsey's latest offering, "Everlasting Hatred: the Roots of Jihad," I come across this comment -- that the church never really grounded itself in LITERAL interpretation of the Bible until the 17th century. Puritans, he says, "broke the ice" so that the Jews were seen in a new light. The Puritans began calling for an end to the ban on Jewish imigration to England and then to see them inhabiting their "Holy land."

The prior view (allegorical interpretation from Augustine and the ECF) led to what? Belief in that the kingdom was already here. Belief that Israel had been "replaced" or that the church was somehow and "extension" of national/religious Israel.

Let me ask all here -- can you see why maybe prophecy was NOT a major theme of the church before the mid 1600's? If what Lindsey observes is true, do you see how the church was more amil, postmil, Preterist, etc. before the 17th century??

I think this bears consideration on the part of all who enjoy the study of prophecy -- yes? no? other?

skypair

 

[Humblesmith]

It is true that there was a very heavy emphasis on allegorical interpretation prior to the Reformation. Much more than people realize. But I don't know enough to commont on Lindsay's strong statement.

 

[Allan]

His argument is a valid one.

The Prets are completely allegorical in their interpretation of prophetic events and why they beleive they are Spiritual Israel or the Church is the continuation of Israel -True Israel - . (Replacement Theology)
Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomic in their outlook.

It (being the allegorical view) is basically the difference between dispensationalists and non-dispen.

 

[skypair]

Thanks Humblesnith and allan,

Arguments often bring up this or that factoid about whether the ECF (or whoever) believed in the rapture or premil.

Hal's assertion coupled with the fact that few had scripture in their hands (and the ones that did usually a) had an agenda or b) were subject to the politico-religious agenda) seems to explain the lack of premil teaching for quite a long span in these 2000 years since Christ.

It's no proof -- it's just something to be aware of, I think.

skypair

 

[Humblesmith]

uh................theonomic.....?

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

uh................theonomic.....?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy

 

[Grasshopper]

this comment -- that the church never really grounded itself in LITERAL interpretation of the Bible until the 17th century.

Perhaps we need a definition of "literal". Is Jesus literally a Lamb?

Does Hal Lindsey still have credibility?

 

[Allan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy

OOPS, my bad - Sorry all - I forgot to list that where I got that from.

It was just that line though but still - My appoligies. Thank you NHTF.

 

[Allan]

Perhaps we need a definition of "literal". Is Jesus literally a Lamb?

Does Hal Lindsey still have credibility?

We take the scriptures literally and if there is similies, metaphors, and or analogies in the scriptures we literally hold the scriptures to those similies, metaphores, and anologies it ascribes.

 

[skypair]

Perhaps we need a definition of "literal". Is Jesus literally a Lamb?

Does Hal Lindsey still have credibility?

As my pastor, Dr. Rogers, used to say -- "If the literal sense makes good sense seek no other sense." Don't be placing the church in passages where Israel, the chosen people of God, are clearly referred to.

Another -- don't be thinking of infant (or any) baptism as "circumcision for the church." Or taking the Eucharist as "Passover for the church."

It would be interesting to make a list of all the things the church "copied" from Judaism during that era that 1) don't apply and 2) that cancel Israel's heritage and promises.

One thing that most dispensationalists agree on -- that early church very ALLEGORICALLY received the "blessing" that belonged to Israel but were very LITERAL when it came to intepretting the "curses." The "curses" were all "interpretted" as belonging to the Jews!

skypair

 

[thjplgvp]

Perhaps we need a definition of "literal". Is Jesus literally a Lamb?

Does Hal Lindsey still have credibility?

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

He is literally the Lamb of God

 

[skypair]

Grasshopper,

Do you know why Christ is the "Lamb" throughout The Revelation? Because that is how ISREAL sees Him and that is who Christ is dealing with in the earth below during the tribulation. Recall that there is to be a tribulation temple on the earth -- there's a coinciding "tabernacle" in heaven, right? There's a throne in heaven -- while Christ makes His enemies His "footstool" below. Some saints souls appear beneath the altar as they are martyred below. Some saints are about to enter the tabernacle through a "sea of glass mingled with fire" in heaven. And below, these saints are the remnant and the 144,000 who survive the tribulation to enter the earthly tabernacle of the MK!

The Revelation is highly symbolic and while also being what John literally saw. This is how we must analyze much of scripture -- accept the literal but discern what, if anything, it may point to.

And just one more note -- I believe you will find that dispensationalists do the best job of this.

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper,

Do you know why Christ is the "Lamb" throughout The Revelation? Because that is how ISREAL sees Him and that is who Christ is dealing with in the earth below during the tribulation. Recall that there is to be a tribulation temple on the earth -- there's a coinciding "tabernacle" in heaven, right? There's a throne in heaven -- while Christ makes His enemies His "footstool" below. Some saints souls appear beneath the altar as they are martyred below. Some saints are about to enter the tabernacle through a "sea of glass mingled with fire" in heaven. And below, these saints are the remnant and the 144,000 who survive the tribulation to enter the earthly tabernacle of the MK!

The Revelation is highly symbolic and while also being what John literally saw. This is how we must analyze much of scripture -- accept the literal but discern what, if anything, it may point to.

So literal thoughts and events can be described using metaphoric or allegoric or idiomatic language?

And just one more note -- I believe you will find that dispensationalists do the best job of this.

You mean like Hal lindsey when he says "locusts" are actually Cobra Helicopters?

 

[rsr]

You mean like Hal lindsey when he says "locusts" are actually Cobra Helicopters?

See, he's just wrong there. Apaches, maybe. More likely some personal jetcraft that's being testing in Area 51.

Reminds me of the Jack Chick tract from 30 years ago or so that maintained that the weapons to be burned in Ezekiel 39 were in fact wood laminates being developed by the U.S. military. Must be super-duper top secret, since that material is yet to appear in a weapon.

 

[Allan]

You mean like Hal lindsey when he says "locusts" are actually Cobra Helicopters?

Does he state this is what the BIBLE says they will be OR that he believes that our best discriptor of this will be 'Cobras or Apaches".

IF you want to slander someone then get what they say correct. He never states they ARE 'copters' but that he believes this is what they could very well be.

Now I am a Disp but I do not hold to the them being 'copters' but literal demons released from the bottomless pit.

 

[skypair]

Now I am a Disp but I do not hold to the them being 'copters' but literal demons released from the bottomless pit.

As do I, Allan. In fact, they are all the demons who ever possessed a man or woman come back to earth! Amongst them is Judas demon, AC's possessor, which I believe Jesus referred to as "THE prince of this world."

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Does he state this is what the BIBLE says they will be OR that he believes that our best discriptor of this will be 'Cobras or Apaches".

Doesn’t matter, the subject is literal or non literal.

IF you want to slander someone then get what they say correct. He never states they ARE 'copters' but that he believes this is what they could very well be.

I did get it correct, pay attention or get his books and read it for yourself. Hal Lindsey slanders himself when he changes his predictions about every 10 years to match the newspaper headlines. I sure didn't hear him speaking of Islamic terrorists 20 years ago but suddenly he and Jack Van Impe have found all sorts of Biblical references to it. Who knows what the "locusts" are now, but I assure you he doesn't take it literally.

 

[skypair]

I did get it correct, pay attention or get his books and read it for yourself. Hal Lindsey slanders himself when he changes his predictions about every 10 years to match the newspaper headlines. I sure didn't hear him speaking of Islamic terrorists 20 years ago but suddenly he and Jack Van Impe have found all sorts of Biblical references to it. Who knows what the "locusts" are now, but I assure you he doesn't take it literally.

Poor grasshopper -- expecting perfection among mere men. I guess that means that no truth comes from men since no man is perfect, eh?

Ever take a ride to a new place? Approaching from the distance you see something but can't quite make it out? The closer you get, the thoughts you offered about it really turn out not to be true? Are people going to understand that you don't know what God knows? That you were in the work of INTERPRETATION -- not in the work of prophesying?

Have you ever made a "wrong call" in all this time that Hal has made his speculations?

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Poor grasshopper -- expecting perfection among mere men. I guess that means that no truth comes from men since no man is perfect, eh?

Does Truth come from God or man?

Ever take a ride to a new place? Approaching from the distance you see something but can't quite make it out? The closer you get, the thoughts you offered about it really turn out not to be true?

But Bro. Hal told us 20 years ago it was near. He didn’t see it far off in the late 1970’s. In fact, he gave us a book of his thoughts “The Terminal Generation” in which he made the case that the 1980’s could very well be the last decade of the earth as we know it. He didn’t seem to think it was from a distance and fuzzy. Perhaps you would like a copy? I saw one on sale for $1.
At what point do you stop accepting his delusions? He has been wrong for almost 40 years when he put out “The Late Great Planet Earth”. But feel free to support his interpretations, but allow some of us to challenge his writings.

Have you ever made a "wrong call" in all this time that Hal has made his speculations?

Has Hal ever admitted being wrong, or does he just tweak is theories to fit the newspapers?


Hal Lindsey= Edgar Whisenant


Edgar Whisenant's 88 Reasons

​

Edgar Whisenant had been an unknown Bible student until 1988, when he wrote and distributed two books, titled 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Could Be in 1988 and On Borrowed Time. Their message was that the Rapture of the Church was to occur on the Jewish New Year, Rosh Hoshana, in 1988, sometime between Sept. 11 and Sept. 13. The 88 "proofs" of this were based on a collection of dates and calculations from Biblical and historical factors.
Whisenant had no doubts about his date, stating: "Only if the Bible is in error am I wrong; and I say that to every preacher in town." During one interview he made a declaration that dramatically demonstrated his level of confidence: "f there were a king in this country and I could gamble with my life, I would stake my life on Rosh Hashana 88." (ETV p. 93)

Although many religious leaders in the US discounted Whisenant's predictions, quite a few got on his bandwagon, including Paul and Jan Crouch, and their Trinity Broadcast Network (TBN) ministry.
They went so far as to alter regular programming on September 11-13. Instead of airing their nightly Praise the Lord television talk show, they ran videotapes of prerecorded shows dealing with the rapture. For non-Christians who might be watching, the revised programming included specific instructions on what to do in case Christian family members or friends disappeared and the world was thrust into the tribulation. (ETV p. 93)

Eventually, 300,000 copies of 88 Reasons were mailed free of charge to ministers across America, and 4.5 million copies were sold in bookstores and elsewhere.
When nothing happened by the end of September 13, Whisenant revised his prediction, suggesting the rapture would come at 10:55 AM on September 15. When that failed, he revised it to October 3.
Even when that date passed, Whisenant remained undaunted: "The evidence is all over the place that it is going to be in a few weeks anyway," he told Christianity Today.
After his "few weeks" had transpired, Whisenant finally saw his error. He claimed that he had made a slight miscalculation of one year because of a fluke in the Gregorian calendar. Jesus was actually going to return during Rosh Hashanah of 1989! Whisenant published his discovery in The Final Shout--Rapture Report 1989. "The time is short," he said. "Everything points to it." This publication was subsequently retitled The Final Shout--Rapture Report 1990 and has since been re-titled yearly as The Final Shout--Rapture Report 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 and so on. He continues to revise his date annually. (ETV p. 94)
It would appear that Whisenant finally gave up. No Whisenant website exists, and he and his 88 Reasons have now entered the lore of false prophecies of the 20th century.

http://www.isitso.org/guide/whise.html