Interesting Teachings from Augustine . . . .

LisaMC · Feb 4, 2003

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-02/npnf1-02-33.htm#P4812_2611041

Augustine
On Christian Doctrine
Book II

Chapter 3.-Among Signs, Words Hold the Chief Place.
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4. Of the signs, then, by which men communicate their thoughts to one another, some relate to the sense of sight, some to that of hearing, a very few to the other senses. For, when we nod, we give no sign except to the eyes of the man to whom we wish by this sign to impart our desire. And some convey a great deal by the motion of the hands: and actors by movements of all their limbs give certain signs to the initiated, and, so to speak, address their conversation to the eyes: and the military standards and flags convey through the eyes the will of the commanders. And all these signs are as it were a kind of visible words. The signs that address themselves to the ear are, as I have said, more numerous, and for the most part consist of words. For though the bugle and the flute and the lyre frequently give not only a sweet but a significant sound, yet all these signs are very few in number compared with words. For among men words have obtained far and away the chief place as a means of indicating the thoughts of the mind. Our Lord, it is true, gave a sign through the odor of the ointment which was poured out upon His feet;2 and in the sacrament of His body and blood He signified His will through the sense of taste; and when by touching the hem of His garment the woman was made whole, the act was not wanting in significance.3 But the countless multitude of the signs through which men express their thoughts consist of words. For I have been able to put into words all those signs, the various classes of which I have briefly touched upon, but I could by no effort express words in terms of those signs.
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Chapter 4.-Origin of Writing.

5. But because words pass away as soon as they strike upon the air, and last no longer than their sound, men have by means of letters formed signs of words. Thus the sounds of the voice are made visible to the eye, not of course as sounds, but by means of certain signs. It has been found impossible, however, to make those signs common to all nations owing to the sin of discord among men, which springs from every man trying to snatch the chief place for himself. And that celebrated tower which was built to reach to heaven was an indication of this arrogance of spirit; and the ungodly men concerned in it justly earned the punishment of having not their minds only, but their tongues besides, thrown into confusion and discordance.4
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Chapter 5.-Scripture Translated into Various Languages.

6. And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings a remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation. And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.
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Chapter 6.-Use of the Obscurities in Scripture Which Arise from Its Figurative Language.

7. But hasty and careless readers are led astray by many and manifold obscurities and ambiguities, substituting one meaning for another; and in some places they cannot hit upon even a fair interpretation. Some of the expressions are so obscure as to shroud the meaning in the thickest darkness. And I do not doubt that all this was divinely arranged for the purpose of subduing pride by toil, and of preventing a feeling of satiety in the intellect, which generally holds in small esteem what is discovered without difficulty. For why is it, I ask, that if any one says that there are holy and just men whose life and conversation the Church of Christ uses as a means of redeeming those who come to it from all kinds of superstitions, and making them through their imitation of good men members of its own body; men who, as good and true servants of God, have come to the baptismal font laying down the burdens of the world, and who rising thence do, through the implanting of the Holy Spirit, yield the fruit of a two-fold love, a love, that is, of God and their neighbor;-how is it, I say, that if a man says this, he does not please his hearer so much as when he draws the same meaning from that passage in Canticles, where it is said of the Church, when it is being praised under the figure of a beautiful woman, "Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are shorn which came up from the washing, whereof every one bears twins, and none is barren among them?"5 Does the hearer learn anything more than when he listens to the same thought expressed in the plainest language, without the help of this figure? And yet, I don't know why, I feel greater pleasure in contemplating holy men, when I view them as the teeth of the Church, tearing men away from their errors, and bringing them into the Church's body, with all their harshness softened down, just as if they had been torn off and masticated by the teeth. It is with the greatest pleasure, too, that I recognize them under the figure of sheep that have been shorn, laying down the burthens of the world like fleeces, and coming up from the washing, i.e., from baptism, and all bearing twins, i.e., the twin commandments of love, and none among them barren in that holy fruit.

8. But why I view them with greater delight under that aspect than if no such figure were drawn from the sacred books, though the fact would remain the same and the knowledge the same, is another question, and one very difficult to answer. Nobody, however, has any doubt about the facts, both that it is pleasanter in some cases to have knowledge communicated through figures, and that what is attended with difficulty in the seeking gives greater pleasure in the finding.-For those who seek but do not find suffer from hunger. Those, again, who do not seek at all because they have what they require just beside them often grow languid from satiety. Now weakness from either of these causes is to be avoided. Accordingly the Holy Spirit has, with admirable wisdom and care for our welfare, so arranged the Holy Scriptures as by the plainer passages to satisfy our hunger, and by the more obscure to stimulate our appetite. For almost nothing is dug out of those obscure passages which may not be found set forth in the plainest language elsewhere.
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[ February 04, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: LisaMC ]

LisaMC · Feb 4, 2003

Chapter 9.-How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.

14. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,-to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.
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LisaMC · Feb 4, 2003

On Christian Doctrine
Book III

Chapter 5.-It is a Wretched Slavery Which Takes the Figurative Expressions of Scripture in a Literal Sense.

9.But the ambiguities of metaphorical words, about which I am next to speak, demand no ordinary care and diligence. In the first place, we must beware of taking a figurative expression literally. For the saying of the apostle applies in this case too: "The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."22 For when what is said figuratively is taken as if it were said literally, it is understood in a carnal manner. And nothing is more fittingly called the death of the soul than when that in it which raises it above the brutes, the intelligence namely, is put in subjection to the flesh by a blind adherence to the letter. For he who follows the letter takes figurative words as if they were proper, and does not carry out what is indicated by a proper word into its secondary signification; but, if he hears of the Sabbath, for example, thinks of nothing but the one day out of seven which recurs in constant succession; and when he hears of a sacrifice, does not carry his thoughts beyond the customary offerings of victims from the flock, and of the fruits of the earth. Now it is surely a miserable slavery of the soul to take signs for things, and to be unable to lift the eye of the mind above what is corporeal and created, that it may drink in eternal light.
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LisaMC · Feb 4, 2003

On Christian Doctrine

Chapter 42.-Sacred Scripture Compared with Profane Authors.

63. But just as poor as the store of gold and silver and garments which the people of Israel brought with them out of Egypt was in comparison with the riches which they afterwards attained at Jerusalem, and which reached their height in the reign of King Solomon, so poor is all the useful knowledge which is gathered from the books of the heathen when compared with the knowledge of Holy Scripture, For whatever man may have learnt from other sources, if it is hurtful, it is there condemned; if it is useful, it is therein contained. And while every man may find there all that he has learnt of useful elsewhere, he will find there in much greater abundance things that are to be found nowhere else, but can be learnt only in the wonderful sublimity and wonderful simplicity of the Scriptures. When, then, the reader is possessed of the instruction here pointed out, so that unknown signs have ceased to be a hindrance to him; when he is meek and lowly of heart, subject to the easy yoke of Christ, and loaded with His light burden, rooted and grounded and built up in faith, so that knowledge cannot puff him up, let him then approach the consideration and discussion of ambiguous signs in Scripture. And about these I shall now, in a third book, endeavor to say what the Lord shall be pleased to vouchsafe.
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thessalonian · Feb 4, 2003

Lisa,

Since your so big on Augustine, you would love I believe it is book 22, chapters 8 and 9 of City of God where he talks about relics and the Shrine of St. Stephen, the Martyr in Acts. Check it out.

LisaMC · Feb 5, 2003

Thess,

So, how do you deduce that I am big on Augustine from me posting some interesting teachings of his?

LisaMC · Feb 5, 2003

Thess,

Does what Augustine says in the section you recommended negate or cancel out something he said in the sections I posted?

thessalonian · Feb 5, 2003

Well first off Lisa, I don't think you are especially if you studied him much (which you apparently haven't). I also think it is funny how you try to show him supporting your view on scripture. I bet you 100 bucks you could find quotes from JP II that if you didn't know who had written them, just that they were Catholic, you would post them like you did with Augustine. The fact of the matter is that none of those quotes you posted are against Cathoicism, nor are they a complete story on what Augustine believed with regard to scripture and tradition. We hold the Bible to be the word of God. We think it is very clear about many things. (Like Eucharist and the need for Baptism). We also know from the words of Paul that "some things are hard to understand, that the unstable will distort to their own destruction".

Here are some more quotes from Augie, you might like.

tradition
From the stromata
"Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God's will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from escape the blessed tradition.(10) "

"So that we may have our ears ready for the reception of the tradition of true knowledge; the soil being previously cleared of the thorns and of every weed by the husbandman, in order to the planting of the vine. For there is a contest, and the prelude to the contest; and them are some mysteries before other mysteries. "

THE STROMATA, OR MISCELLANIES: REST OF BOOK VII

." As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established. "

"Of the heresies, some receive their appellation from a [person's] name, as that which is called tradition after Valentinus, and that after Marcion, and that after Basilides, although they boast of adducing the opinion of Matthew [without truth]; for as the teaching, so also the tradition of the apostles was one."

There are many others, but you get the picture. Augie was not a Bible alone guy.
Blessings

LisaMC · Feb 5, 2003

Thess,

Do you not see the significance of these to portions coming from the same book of Augustine? First you have:

On Christian Doctrine
Book III

Chapter 5.-It is a Wretched Slavery Which Takes the Figurative Expressions of Scripture in a Literal Sense.

9.But the ambiguities of metaphorical words, about which I am next to speak, demand no ordinary care and diligence. In the first place, we must beware of taking a figurative expression literally. For the saying of the apostle applies in this case too: "The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."22 For when what is said figuratively is taken as if it were said literally, it is understood in a carnal manner. And nothing is more fittingly called the death of the soul than when that in it which raises it above the brutes, the intelligence namely, is put in subjection to the flesh by a blind adherence to the letter. For he who follows the letter takes figurative words as if they were proper, and does not carry out what is indicated by a proper word into its secondary signification; . . . .
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Later followed by:

St. Augustine
On Christian Doctrine
Book III

Chapter 16 - Rule for interpreting commands and prohibitions

If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man," says Christ, "and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us. Scripture says: "If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink;" and this is beyond doubt a command to do a kindness . . . .
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LisaMC · Feb 5, 2003

Um . . . I'm almost sure that it was Clement of Alexandria who wrote the Stromata. Want to check on that and get back to me?

LisaMC · Feb 5, 2003

Also, I'm curious as to why you would think that the quotes I have given from Augustine are an attempt, by me, to endorse that Augustine was a sola scripturist?. I know it's nothing I said. You wouldn't have made that inferrence simply based upon what you read from Augustine here, now would you have?

LisaMC · Feb 6, 2003

Where'd ya go Thess?

LisaMC · Feb 6, 2003

Bump

LisaMC · Feb 18, 2003

Bumping this up for Bill Putnam. Here are some quotes from Augustine that I found interesting. What do you think?

WPutnam · Feb 19, 2003

Originally posted by LisaMC:
Bumping this up for Bill Putnam. Here are some quotes from Augustine that I found interesting. What do you think?
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I've read through this thread and found it interesting. Did you notice that Thess also posted some material that stresses tradition as well?

I have a book I am contemplating scanning pertinant parts that shows where the early fathers seemingly support Sola Scriptura. And it is not Augustine alone that is quoted but about 10 other authors.

But in the same book, when these same authors are studied in context of their complete writings, they are not Sola Scripturists at all, but those who are in heresy are! And the book goes on to show an overwhelming list of the early fathers who support the authority of tradition (Sacred Tradition) as well.

Where it may seem that a given early church father supports Sola Scriptura, what is actually happening is, scripture is the only common ground in a debate against a given heresy. In other words, the heretic denies the authority of the Church - accepting only scripture. Therefore, the early church fathers were forced to debate from that "common ground" - scriputre only - as a debate from the authority of the Church would certainly not convince the heretic.

Anyhoooooooo, I will look into providing those other quotes for your edification and amazement.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

LisaMC · Feb 21, 2003

Bill,

Did you forget this topic?

WPutnam · Feb 21, 2003

Originally posted by LisaMC:
Bill,

Did you forget this topic?
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Lisaa, go back and read my last reply again! It's there!

I also have your reply on Sola Scriptura on the hard-drive ready for replying to, to be done in a day or two...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

BobRyan · Feb 21, 2003

But in the same book, when these same authors are studied in context of their complete writings, they are not Sola Scripturists at all, but those who are in heresy are! And the book goes on to show an overwhelming list of the early fathers who support the authority of tradition (Sacred Tradition) as well.
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Bill - you have a couple of problems here. The RCC itself endorses the "Sola Scriptura" model that ALL doctrine must be tested by scripture - not just Augustine.

On the other hand - you are inserting a definition of "Sola Scriptura" that NOT ONLY requires that all doctrine be tested by scripture - but ALSO that no directives/instruction be given BEYOND what is written. In other words - you are ADDING a definition that Augustine - and others that adhere to Sola Scriptura here - might not agree with. Certainly Martin Luther did not agree with that "added" definition.

In Christ,

Bob

WPutnam · Feb 22, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
But in the same book, when these same authors are studied in context of their complete writings, they are not Sola Scripturists at all, but those who are in heresy are! And the book goes on to show an overwhelming list of the early fathers who support the authority of tradition (Sacred Tradition) as well.

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Bill - you have a couple of problems here. The RCC itself endorses the "Sola Scriptura" model that ALL doctrine must be tested by scripture - not just Augustine.

On the other hand - you are inserting a definition of "Sola Scriptura" that NOT ONLY requires that all doctrine be tested by scripture - but ALSO that no directives/instruction be given BEYOND what is written. In other words - you are ADDING a definition that Augustine - and others that adhere to Sola Scriptura here - might not agree with. Certainly Martin Luther did not agree with that "added" definition.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks. Bob, but from the moment the New Testament was available to all, including all of the Church, it has always tested a doctrine from both the Sacred Traditon and by the Sacred Scriptures.

As for going "beyond what is written," where do you see that? Also, this "going beyond" needs some good defining. If you mean a doctrine that comes out of thin air, you are so right. But if you means that it is a doctrine that has always been believed but is only implied in scripture (such and the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary) then we have a problem with definition.

It took hundreds of years of study, reflection and prayer before the above mentioned dogmas were proclaimed, simply because they were not explicit in scipture, but only implied in that nothing in scripture would speak against it, while at the same time, indicate the logic of why the dogma was proclamed in the first place, i,e., that since Mary was to be the very tabernacle of the Lord for nine months, it is logical that she would be the perfectly sinless womb-provider suitable for Our Lord.

Now, I invite you to study Augustine and Luther to see what they felt about Mary, insofar as her being an "Ever-virgin," "Conceived without sin," etc. and see what you might find.

Luther, interestingly, believed much of what we believe about Mary today. And I believe Augustine did as well....

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

LisaMC · Feb 24, 2003

Yes, Bill, I read your last post. Your last comment was:

Anyhoooooooo, I will look into providing those other quotes for your edification and amazement.
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have you not had a chance to gather those qotes?

Interesting Teachings from Augustine . . . .

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