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Iraqi Christians freedoms curtailed

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ASLANSPAL, Aug 27, 2005.

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  1. ASLANSPAL

    ASLANSPAL New Member

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    [​IMG]

    In new Iraq, shaken faith
    Christians, Jews and other religious minorities live in fear of harassment or death
    Yousef Lyon and family (Newsday Photo/Timothy M. Phelps)

    BY TIMOTHY M. PHELPS
    STAFF CORRESPONDENT

    August 26, 2005


    BASRA, Iraq -- For Yousef Lyon and other Christians in Basra, the downfall of Saddam Hussein has meant a terrible loss of religious freedom.

    The social club where Lyon and his friends would gather in the evening to play dominoes, where families danced or listened to live music on holidays, is closed. Wedding celebrations are held quietly at home.


    snippet:
    No more Sunday school

    But a year after Hussein was overthrown, things began to change in Basra. In April of last year, one of the Shia militias revolted against the British army. Christians who had been licensed to sell alcohol under Hussein were attacked and sometimes killed by the militants. The church started to receive threatening letters intended to extort money, Fathallah said.

    "The fanatic people think that if you don't obey law, they will move against you," he added.

    Social activities have been curtailed. The nursery school is closed. There is no more Sunday school because of fear the school bus will be attacked.

    Fathallah said Presbyterians started leaving Basra in large numbers in 1991 after the failed uprising against Hussein, which followed Iraq's disastrous invasions of Iran and Kuwait. But that trend has continued in the past two years. The church had 300 mostly large families during its heyday 30 or more years ago. Now just 35 families belong -- a total of 150 people.

    But Fathallah said he is still optimistic that Presbyterians will continue on in Basra because their church was registered as an autonomous entity based in Iraq a few years ago and services are held in Arabic.

    "If we can survive, we will be a good church," Fathallah said. "Basra is the best city, and we are good survivors."

    What! no Sunday school! ..if that was to happen here ..there would be millions
    in the streets if these people are not protected
    the churches in the United States should have the
    right to give them refugee status and protection
    in the United States...we cannot abandon the
    Christians of Iraq.

    My comment: Of course I do not want Saddam Hussien or his Baathist back in power at all,but
    the new constitution has just got to protect these
    people and reign in stupid oppressive Sharia laws
    that oppress others ..Sharia law needs major..major reformation or placed in the garbage
    bin...or a strict separation of church and state
    in Iraq which does not look likely.

    Christians in Iraq
     
    #1 ASLANSPAL, Aug 27, 2005
  2. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    Amen!
     
    #2 Plain Old Bill, Aug 27, 2005
  3. mcdirector

    mcdirector Active Member

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    I was under the impression that the new Iraqi constitution was not going to violate civil rights -- that was one of several tenets the developers were trying to follow. Now I just did a google and can't find a list of considerations for the constitution. I'll keep looking. I'd like to see them in writing.

    The story you posted is indeed sad :(
     
    #3 mcdirector, Aug 27, 2005
  4. mcdirector

    mcdirector Active Member

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    #4 mcdirector, Aug 27, 2005
  5. ASLANSPAL

    ASLANSPAL New Member

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    Warning offical rant:

    I cannot believe the disrespect to the United States in the way they are treating Iraqi Christians..you would think they would be honoring
    them and thanking them for the intervention of
    a strongly Churched country that is Christian.

    Who has the voice and will to just tell these
    Sharia bully's to say...Quit it! that is your first
    warning ..."Stop it!" 2nd warning...3rd time
    We are rapturing these Christians to the United States plus your are paying for it with 10% royalty on your south oil wells for a generation.
    Iraq you must protect your minorities and respect
    other religions or your society will fail.

    I have heard enough about this sharia crude it
    is antiquated and has no grace...change! or get
    ready for the garbage bin.

    In fact when Bush even hears the word he should
    say No more! nip it! unacceptable! we should all join in on that symphony.
     
    #5 ASLANSPAL, Aug 27, 2005
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and the full religious rights for all individuals and the freedom of creed and religious practices."
     
    #6 KenH, Aug 27, 2005
  7. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Well, see, this is the concern I had from the git-go when I found out the interim constitution said it would be an Islamic state. Islam and democracy are diametrically opposed. Had posted before about the Assyrian Christians, concern they would be persecuted. And yet, we were all told the NEW Iraqi government was going to be a democracy. The word "democracy" to most Americans means a similar form of government to what we have.

    Why do ya think Paul Bremmer was so happy to get out of dodge?
     
    #7 LadyEagle, Aug 27, 2005
  8. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Assyrian Christians Link

    People have joined in, but he turns a deaf ear. He turned a deaf ear to Israel and Gaza and the Road Map. And this is no different. [​IMG]
     
    #8 LadyEagle, Aug 27, 2005
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Pulling out of Gaza was a decision by the Israeli people through their representatives in government. You really need to quit blaming President Bush because your buddy, Bibi, didn't get his way in the Israeli government. Even if you claim U.S. pressure in the situation, Israel could have ignored the pressure, accepted any cuts in foreign aid that might have resulted(I doubt there would be have been any), and refused to move a few thousand Israelis out of Gaza.

    So vent your anger toward the Israeli citizens, Ariel Sharon and others in the Israeli government, not President Bush.
     
    #9 KenH, Aug 27, 2005
  10. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    As are Christianity and democracy.

    A democracy is ruled by the people, therefore, the majority of Americans could easily vote to ban Christianity here.

    On the other hand, a majority of Americansm if they are Christians, could also vote to ban any other religion, or denomination, in this country as well. Or even make it illegal to be atheist.

    There is only one right way in Christianity, but there are many in a democracy.

    If we can make it work for us in America, then I'm sure they can make it work for them in Iraq.

    We'll just have to wait and see.
     
    #10 Bro. James Reed, Aug 27, 2005
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    But Ken,

    That would mean that she doesn't support Israel...no good pre-mil dispy could ever do that!!!!!! :eek: [​IMG]

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #11 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 27, 2005
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Well see,

    When you first posted your concern about Assyrian Christians, I also posted links from other Christians, I think some were also Assyrian, who say that life was much better post Saddam than it was pre-Saddam. All groups can live in freedom. There is no genetic barrier to Arab Muslims living in a democracy as you seem to think there is. As a matter of fact, I would say that in some ways, the Iraqis are even more worthy of Democracy than we are in America...note the voter turnout in January despite the fact that they faced threats of terrorism, note the way that even though the terrorists target the recruiting centers, the Iraqis keep coming back to join up to protect their country from the terrorists invaders from Syria, and note the way that they are fighting, dying for their country, and taking control of the security of their nation in a manner that we may be able to start bringing some troops home by the end of next year.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #12 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 27, 2005
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    As are Christianity and democracy.

    A democracy is ruled by the people, therefore, the majority of Americans could easily vote to ban Christianity here.

    On the other hand, a majority of Americansm if they are Christians, could also vote to ban any other religion, or denomination, in this country as well. Or even make it illegal to be atheist.

    There is only one right way in Christianity, but there are many in a democracy.

    If we can make it work for us in America, then I'm sure they can make it work for them in Iraq.

    We'll just have to wait and see.     </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly!

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #13 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 27, 2005
  14. hillclimber

    hillclimber New Member

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    As are Christianity and democracy.

    A democracy is ruled by the people, therefore, the majority of Americans could easily vote to ban Christianity here.

    On the other hand, a majority of Americansm if they are Christians, could also vote to ban any other religion, or denomination, in this country as well. Or even make it illegal to be atheist.

    There is only one right way in Christianity, but there are many in a democracy.

    If we can make it work for us in America, then I'm sure they can make it work for them in Iraq.

    We'll just have to wait and see.     </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely correct. And we have allowed Christianity to be nearly voted out, but since that effort has stalled, the SCOTUS has taken over that job.
     
    #14 hillclimber, Aug 28, 2005
  15. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    Do you think that some countries just seem to create a vacuum that keeps sucking in dictators? I must be quite honest here and I dont like to be pessimistic but I dont see a democracy ever happening here. If we really believe that a Judeo-Christian ethic is the basis of our constitution do you believe that Islam is conducive to an American style democracy? But to pull our troops out of Iraq now would be cruel.
     
    #15 Ps104_33, Aug 28, 2005
  16. hillclimber

    hillclimber New Member

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    I have to ammend my "absolutely correct" above.
    Ps104_33, I failed to grasp your point till now. I do not think an american style Democracy will last very long in a Godless nation. At least one like ours. Ours was founded upon Christian principals, and would be (and is rapidly becomming) a dismal failure were it not for those principals being followed. The more we disassociate our nation from God and His Word, the more rapidly will be our fall. When the Christian influence is removed entirely, this nation will fall like a house of cards.

    The democracy in Iraq is being established in a dark religion, but the uniting of the various factions may keep it going a little while. If we don't keep a substantial force there, it will fall back into chaos quickly I suspect. The whole world is going to change dramatically within the next 10 years I think, due to the removal of the Body of Christ. So if the Islamist can make a constitutional style govt. work till then, it is enough. Or even if it takes 20 years or more, many lives will be preserved, for evangelization.
     
    #16 hillclimber, Aug 29, 2005
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