God's Word is TRUTH
New Member
I haven't seen any good disscussions on baptism, so I'm going to ask the question is baptism required for salvation?
In Christian Love,
Dustin
In Christian Love,
Dustin
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Is Baptism required for Salvation?
- Thread starter God's Word is TRUTH
- Start date
:thumbs: Agree..gekko said:no. scripture says it's not. so No is the answer to your question.
I say no baptizm is something you do because you are saved (obdience) not something you do to get saved. Otherwise why would Paul have made it a point to point out that he didnt come to baptize. If it was SO important would he not made it a point to say that he WAS SENT TO BAPTIZE.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Salvation is obtained through Faith in Jesus Christ and that alone.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12-13 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
:Fish:
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Salvation is obtained through Faith in Jesus Christ and that alone.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12-13 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
:Fish:
Darron Steele
New Member
Completed baptism is not necessary for salvation. Avoidance of baptism is guarantee of condemntation.
1 Peter 3:21 "El bautismo que corresponde a esto ahora |os| salva (no quitando las inmunicias del cuerpo, sino como la aspiración de una buena conciencia hacia Dios) mediante la resurrección de Jesucristo" (RVR 1995|RVA|RVR 1995)
translated "The baptism that corresponds to this now |you| saves (not removing the filths of-the body, but as the aspiration of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus-Christ."
The passage clearly states that the baptism ceremony of getting in the baptismal pool and getting a bath does not save us. Rather, the repentance that this baptism represents saves us.
Acts 2:38a goes with this. At Acts 2:38a Peter commands repentance, and defines that repentance. The Greek word rendered "and" is translated elsewhere "and so." The verb tense of “repent” is second person imperative, while that of the “be baptized” is third person passive imperative, stressing individual obedience (in Criswell, Acts 2:38 note). Because of difference in Greek verb tenses, the “be baptized” does NOT have the same force as “repent” (in Zodhiates, Word Study New Testament With..., 397). This is seen in the NKJV “let.” In most Spanish and Portuguese translations this is shown by the subjunctive mood, which has several uses, in this case obligation. Spanish has either “sea bautizado” (RVA)=“may(let)-s/he-be baptized” or “bautícese” (RVR all; NVI; the original Portuguese D'Almeida Bible “Christo, pera” and two revisions ERC and ECRF “Cristo, para”; the French Segond series; the modern Spanish VP;P)=“may(let)-s/he-baptize-self” =‘may-s/he-get-self-baptized.’ Portuguese has “seja batizado” (DA ERA/ERC/ECRF, BLH, NTLH)=“may-s/he-be baptized.”
To reflect the Greek, these foreign translations use normal imperative for "repent" but use the subjunctive for "be baptized" showing obligation. "Repent" is a command, and "let s/he be baptized" is an obligation from repentance.
To clarify the passage, a comma should be returned to its place before "for" as in the 1611 KJV. Alexander Campbell's New Testament read: "And Peter said to them, Reform, and be each of you immersed in the name of Jesus Christ, in order to the remission of sins" (1835). A comma is also in these foreign translations: the original Portuguese D'Almeida Bible “Christo, pera” and two revisions ERC and ECRF “Cristo, para” both meaning "Christ, in-order-for," plus in Spanish the modern Versión Popular includes a comma in the same place.
A rendering considered from a number of different sources:
"You-people-repent-you, and-so let-s/he-be-baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, in-order-for the pardon/remission of you-people’s sins;"
Hence, as Peter indicated at 1 Peter 3:21 described immediately above, Acts 2:38 indicates that if we really repent in a way that brings "remission of sins" then we are going to be headed toward the water. 1 Peter 3:21 clarifies that it is not the going under the water that brings us salvation but rather what brings us to the water that gives us salvation.
1 Peter 3:21 "El bautismo que corresponde a esto ahora |os| salva (no quitando las inmunicias del cuerpo, sino como la aspiración de una buena conciencia hacia Dios) mediante la resurrección de Jesucristo" (RVR 1995|RVA|RVR 1995)
translated "The baptism that corresponds to this now |you| saves (not removing the filths of-the body, but as the aspiration of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus-Christ."
The passage clearly states that the baptism ceremony of getting in the baptismal pool and getting a bath does not save us. Rather, the repentance that this baptism represents saves us.
Acts 2:38a goes with this. At Acts 2:38a Peter commands repentance, and defines that repentance. The Greek word rendered "and" is translated elsewhere "and so." The verb tense of “repent” is second person imperative, while that of the “be baptized” is third person passive imperative, stressing individual obedience (in Criswell, Acts 2:38 note). Because of difference in Greek verb tenses, the “be baptized” does NOT have the same force as “repent” (in Zodhiates, Word Study New Testament With..., 397). This is seen in the NKJV “let.” In most Spanish and Portuguese translations this is shown by the subjunctive mood, which has several uses, in this case obligation. Spanish has either “sea bautizado” (RVA)=“may(let)-s/he-be baptized” or “bautícese” (RVR all; NVI; the original Portuguese D'Almeida Bible “Christo, pera” and two revisions ERC and ECRF “Cristo, para”; the French Segond series; the modern Spanish VP;P)=“may(let)-s/he-baptize-self” =‘may-s/he-get-self-baptized.’ Portuguese has “seja batizado” (DA ERA/ERC/ECRF, BLH, NTLH)=“may-s/he-be baptized.”
To reflect the Greek, these foreign translations use normal imperative for "repent" but use the subjunctive for "be baptized" showing obligation. "Repent" is a command, and "let s/he be baptized" is an obligation from repentance.
To clarify the passage, a comma should be returned to its place before "for" as in the 1611 KJV. Alexander Campbell's New Testament read: "And Peter said to them, Reform, and be each of you immersed in the name of Jesus Christ, in order to the remission of sins" (1835). A comma is also in these foreign translations: the original Portuguese D'Almeida Bible “Christo, pera” and two revisions ERC and ECRF “Cristo, para” both meaning "Christ, in-order-for," plus in Spanish the modern Versión Popular includes a comma in the same place.
A rendering considered from a number of different sources:
"You-people-repent-you, and-so let-s/he-be-baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, in-order-for the pardon/remission of you-people’s sins;"
Hence, as Peter indicated at 1 Peter 3:21 described immediately above, Acts 2:38 indicates that if we really repent in a way that brings "remission of sins" then we are going to be headed toward the water. 1 Peter 3:21 clarifies that it is not the going under the water that brings us salvation but rather what brings us to the water that gives us salvation.
Darron Steele
New Member
I liked MorganT's point about 1 Corinthians. I would like to elaborate.
I Corinthians 9:22b-23 records Paul writing “I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. | And I do all things for the gospel’s sake, that I may be a joint partaker thereof” (TNIV|ASV). Paul wanted to do anything right to get people salvation. However, at I Corinthians 1:14 he writes “I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except” (TNIV) a few people, and at 1:17a he writes “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” ASV). It follows that if Paul wanted “by all possible means” to “save,” yet saw no need to baptize, then baptism must not have been part of the means for people to be saved.
Despite the fact that Paul was not sent by Jesus Christ to baptize per I Corinthians 1:17, Paul did write this to the same audience at I Corinthians 3:5-6: “What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him. I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase” (ASV). Paul takes credit for planting the seeds of salvation, yet baptized only a few of the Corinthian Christians. Obviously, Paul did not consider the act of baptism to be part of the means of attaining salvation.
I Corinthians 9:22b-23 records Paul writing “I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. | And I do all things for the gospel’s sake, that I may be a joint partaker thereof” (TNIV|ASV). Paul wanted to do anything right to get people salvation. However, at I Corinthians 1:14 he writes “I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except” (TNIV) a few people, and at 1:17a he writes “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” ASV). It follows that if Paul wanted “by all possible means” to “save,” yet saw no need to baptize, then baptism must not have been part of the means for people to be saved.
Despite the fact that Paul was not sent by Jesus Christ to baptize per I Corinthians 1:17, Paul did write this to the same audience at I Corinthians 3:5-6: “What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him. I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase” (ASV). Paul takes credit for planting the seeds of salvation, yet baptized only a few of the Corinthian Christians. Obviously, Paul did not consider the act of baptism to be part of the means of attaining salvation.
God's Word is TRUTH
New Member
In the religious world today there is much controversy over the subject of baptism. Some believe it is necessary to obedience and one may not refuse to submit, but it is not essential to our becoming a child of God. Others believe it is not necessary at all while others believe it is a prerequisite in becoming a Christian.
What Do The Scriptures Say?
Peter was asked by the those assembled on Pentecost, "What should we do?" (Acts 2:37). He replied, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). The expression, "for the remission of sins" is literally "into (to, unto, with a view to) the remission of sins." Also note that inspiration puts (1) repent and (2) baptism before (3) "remission of sins."
Argument Over The Word "For"
Some in the religious world argue that the word "for" before "remission of sins" is translated from the Greek word "eis" and means "because of." In other words, one is to repent and be baptized "because" his sins have already been forgiven.
First, that would be a strange interpretation putting repentance after one becomes a Christian rather than before. Can one be saved without repentance (Luke 13:3,5; Luke 24:47; Acts 17:30-31)? Secondly, it is also interesting that Jesus himself tied baptism with belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. He also put "saved" after both belief and baptism. If one is saved before repentance and baptism, then the same would hold true of belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. Is one saved before he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
The Greek Expression "Eis" And A Similar Passage
Does the Greek expression "eis", rendered "for" in Acts 2:38 mean "because of?" If the expression means one is already saved before he repents and is baptized, it would have that meaning in other passages where it is used. If it does not mean that in other passages, it cannot mean that in Acts 2:38.
When Jesus instituted His supper, he stated in the latter part of Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Who will argue that we are saved before Jesus shed his blood (Hebrews 9:22)? If the expression, "for the remission of sins" means one is saved before what is described prior to the expression in Acts 2:38, then that interpretation must also apply in Matthew 26:28. It would make Jesus saying His blood was shed for many because their sins were already forgiven. Just think, you and I were saved before Jesus shed His blood! If we were, then we were saved by something other than the blood of Jesus!
Conclusion
If the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Matthew 26:28 means Jesus' blood was shed "in order" that you and I might receive the remission of our sins, then the same expression in Acts 2:38 means you and I repent and are baptized "in order" to receive the remission of sins.
In Christian Love,
Dustin
What Do The Scriptures Say?
Peter was asked by the those assembled on Pentecost, "What should we do?" (Acts 2:37). He replied, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). The expression, "for the remission of sins" is literally "into (to, unto, with a view to) the remission of sins." Also note that inspiration puts (1) repent and (2) baptism before (3) "remission of sins."
Argument Over The Word "For"
Some in the religious world argue that the word "for" before "remission of sins" is translated from the Greek word "eis" and means "because of." In other words, one is to repent and be baptized "because" his sins have already been forgiven.
First, that would be a strange interpretation putting repentance after one becomes a Christian rather than before. Can one be saved without repentance (Luke 13:3,5; Luke 24:47; Acts 17:30-31)? Secondly, it is also interesting that Jesus himself tied baptism with belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. He also put "saved" after both belief and baptism. If one is saved before repentance and baptism, then the same would hold true of belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. Is one saved before he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
The Greek Expression "Eis" And A Similar Passage
Does the Greek expression "eis", rendered "for" in Acts 2:38 mean "because of?" If the expression means one is already saved before he repents and is baptized, it would have that meaning in other passages where it is used. If it does not mean that in other passages, it cannot mean that in Acts 2:38.
When Jesus instituted His supper, he stated in the latter part of Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Who will argue that we are saved before Jesus shed his blood (Hebrews 9:22)? If the expression, "for the remission of sins" means one is saved before what is described prior to the expression in Acts 2:38, then that interpretation must also apply in Matthew 26:28. It would make Jesus saying His blood was shed for many because their sins were already forgiven. Just think, you and I were saved before Jesus shed His blood! If we were, then we were saved by something other than the blood of Jesus!
Conclusion
If the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Matthew 26:28 means Jesus' blood was shed "in order" that you and I might receive the remission of our sins, then the same expression in Acts 2:38 means you and I repent and are baptized "in order" to receive the remission of sins.
In Christian Love,
Dustin
Darron Steele
New Member
Acts 16:30-4 also shed light on this matter.
At Acts 16:30 Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (ASV) upon which they replied at Acts 16:31 solely “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and all your household” (NASB). Then the jailer’s family was preached to with words unspecified at Acts 16:32. After this, he washed their wounds, and after that he was baptized at Acts 16:33 “And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, him and all his, immediately” (ASV). The matter of baptism was not of such urgency that it precluded medical treatment; the wounds of Paul and Silas were washed which would have been a matter of mortal health, and then baptism was done. All would have had a perspective on the eternal life of the soul which certainly would have been viewed as a more weighty matter than physical health, yet medical treatment was done before baptism. It is evident that immediate baptism here was not viewed as a matter of eternal urgency. Therefore, it is evident that completed baptism was not viewed as the deciding factor of eternity -- the belief specified was.
Of course, while not of eternal urgency, it was serious enough that it was done before eating -- and no doubt everyone was hungry, especially Paul and Silas after their ordeal.
Also helpful is Ephesians 2:8-10. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (KJV). We are saved by faith apart from works, and then from that faith we do the works "ordained" by God for Christians -- such as the specific deed of baptism.
At Acts 16:30 Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (ASV) upon which they replied at Acts 16:31 solely “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and all your household” (NASB). Then the jailer’s family was preached to with words unspecified at Acts 16:32. After this, he washed their wounds, and after that he was baptized at Acts 16:33 “And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, him and all his, immediately” (ASV). The matter of baptism was not of such urgency that it precluded medical treatment; the wounds of Paul and Silas were washed which would have been a matter of mortal health, and then baptism was done. All would have had a perspective on the eternal life of the soul which certainly would have been viewed as a more weighty matter than physical health, yet medical treatment was done before baptism. It is evident that immediate baptism here was not viewed as a matter of eternal urgency. Therefore, it is evident that completed baptism was not viewed as the deciding factor of eternity -- the belief specified was.
Of course, while not of eternal urgency, it was serious enough that it was done before eating -- and no doubt everyone was hungry, especially Paul and Silas after their ordeal.
Also helpful is Ephesians 2:8-10. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (KJV). We are saved by faith apart from works, and then from that faith we do the works "ordained" by God for Christians -- such as the specific deed of baptism.
Last edited by a moderator:
God's Word is TRUTH said:In the religious world today there is much controversy over the subject of baptism. Some believe it is necessary to obedience and one may not refuse to submit, but it is not essential to our becoming a child of God. Others believe it is not necessary at all while others believe it is a prerequisite in becoming a Christian.
What Do The Scriptures Say?
Peter was asked by the those assembled on Pentecost, "What should we do?" (Acts 2:37). He replied, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). The expression, "for the remission of sins" is literally "into (to, unto, with a view to) the remission of sins." Also note that inspiration puts (1) repent and (2) baptism before (3) "remission of sins."
Argument Over The Word "For"
Some in the religious world argue that the word "for" before "remission of sins" is translated from the Greek word "eis" and means "because of." In other words, one is to repent and be baptized "because" his sins have already been forgiven.
First, that would be a strange interpretation putting repentance after one becomes a Christian rather than before. Can one be saved without repentance (Luke 13:3,5; Luke 24:47; Acts 17:30-31)? Secondly, it is also interesting that Jesus himself tied baptism with belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. He also put "saved" after both belief and baptism. If one is saved before repentance and baptism, then the same would hold true of belief (faith) in Mark 16:16. Is one saved before he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
The Greek Expression "Eis" And A Similar Passage
Does the Greek expression "eis", rendered "for" in Acts 2:38 mean "because of?" If the expression means one is already saved before he repents and is baptized, it would have that meaning in other passages where it is used. If it does not mean that in other passages, it cannot mean that in Acts 2:38.
When Jesus instituted His supper, he stated in the latter part of Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Who will argue that we are saved before Jesus shed his blood (Hebrews 9:22)? If the expression, "for the remission of sins" means one is saved before what is described prior to the expression in Acts 2:38, then that interpretation must also apply in Matthew 26:28. It would make Jesus saying His blood was shed for many because their sins were already forgiven. Just think, you and I were saved before Jesus shed His blood! If we were, then we were saved by something other than the blood of Jesus!
Conclusion
If the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Matthew 26:28 means Jesus' blood was shed "in order" that you and I might receive the remission of our sins, then the same expression in Acts 2:38 means you and I repent and are baptized "in order" to receive the remission of sins.
In Christian Love,
Dustin
Dustin how do you get around what Paul said I see you dodged it so I will ask you point blank HOW
Darron Steele
New Member
God's Word is TRUTH: I am in agreement with you that the Greek word transliterated "eis" means "in-order-for." I get my reason from Luke 24:47 according to the oldest manuscripts. They have "repentance for remission of sins" (NASB) rather than KJV "repentance and remission." I strongly doubt that we `repent because of the remission of sins.' The "for" at Luke 24:47 is from the same Greek conjunction at Acts 2:38 and the expression "for the remission of sins" is the same at Luke 24:47. At Luke 24:47, there is a necessity of "repentance in-order-for remission of sins."
However, as I pointed out, at Acts 2:38 a difference in verb tenses seems to suggest that it is not the baptism that is "in-order-for remission" of our sins but rather the repentance itself as at Luke 24:47 -- with the baptism at Acts 2:38 being an obligation from that repentance which is "in-order-for remission" of our sins.
However, as I pointed out, at Acts 2:38 a difference in verb tenses seems to suggest that it is not the baptism that is "in-order-for remission" of our sins but rather the repentance itself as at Luke 24:47 -- with the baptism at Acts 2:38 being an obligation from that repentance which is "in-order-for remission" of our sins.
Darron Steele said:God's Word is TRUTH: I am in agreement with you that the Greek word transliterated "eis" means "in-order-for." I get my reason from Luke 24:47 according to the oldest manuscripts. They have "repentance for remission of sins" (NASB) rather than KJV "repentance and remission." I strongly doubt that we `repent because of the remission of sins.' The "for" at Luke 24:47 is from the same Greek conjunction at Acts 2:38 and the expression "for the remission of sins" is the same at Luke 24:47. At Luke 24:47, there is a necessity of "repentance in-order-for remission of sins."
However, as I pointed out, at Acts 2:38 a difference in verb tenses seems to suggest that it is not the baptism that is "in-order-for remission" of our sins but rather the repentance itself as at Luke 24:47 -- with the baptism at Acts 2:38 being an obligation from that repentance which is "in-order-for remission" of our sins.
I agree with Darron you are baptized because you are saved in order to show obdience to the Lord but what about people in the hospital who cannot be baptized are they lost? No What about the theif on the cross next to Jesus who believed on the cross he went to heaven because Jesus said so however you cannot show me were he was baptized.
Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture.
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.
Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”
John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?
Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.
Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The act of baptism is required.
Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.
Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.
Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.
Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.
1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture.
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.
Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”
John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?
Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.
Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The act of baptism is required.
Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.
Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.
Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.
Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.
1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.
Darron Steele
New Member
Mojoala: I see you constantly referring to `Why was s/he-they baptized immediately if they did not have to be in order to be saved.' I have to ask: do you only do what you have to in order to be saved? Do you ever do anything to serve the Lord because the Lord gave you the heart to want to serve Him?
When I got saved, it was unfortunately in a church that avoided immediate baptism. I did not believe I had to be baptized in order to be saved, but I wanted to be baptized just as soon as they would baptize me.
The Bible says that when Christ redeems us, it creates people "zealous of good works" (ASV) -- Titus 2:14.
You use a lot of Catholic terminology foreign to the Scriptures. The Bible knows nothing of "baptism of desire" or `baptism of martyrdom' etc.. The only place I have seen them is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I am only interested in what the Bible teaches about water baptism. It is my point, and I see traces of it in your ideas, that any real faith in the Gospel will drive us to the water given opportunity -- but that completed baptism in physical water is not absolutely and unconditionally necessary to be saved.
When I got saved, it was unfortunately in a church that avoided immediate baptism. I did not believe I had to be baptized in order to be saved, but I wanted to be baptized just as soon as they would baptize me.
The Bible says that when Christ redeems us, it creates people "zealous of good works" (ASV) -- Titus 2:14.
You use a lot of Catholic terminology foreign to the Scriptures. The Bible knows nothing of "baptism of desire" or `baptism of martyrdom' etc.. The only place I have seen them is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I am only interested in what the Bible teaches about water baptism. It is my point, and I see traces of it in your ideas, that any real faith in the Gospel will drive us to the water given opportunity -- but that completed baptism in physical water is not absolutely and unconditionally necessary to be saved.
Last edited by a moderator:
It seems rather simple to me to interpret what the bible says regarding baptism as a requirment for salvation.
The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be in paradise.
If we can take Jesus at His word (and i believe we can), then the thief was saved without water baptism.
The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be in paradise.
If we can take Jesus at His word (and i believe we can), then the thief was saved without water baptism.
Lagardo said:It seems rather simple to me to interpret what the bible says regarding baptism as a requirment for salvation.
The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be in paradise.
If we can take Jesus at His word (and i believe we can), then the thief was saved without water baptism.
The understanding is that baptism is *normatively* necessary to enter into a state of grace. However, those who desire to be united to Christ in the ways he had prescribed, yet die before that opportunity arises, are said to have been baptized by desire. Such would apply to the thief on the cross.
Lagardo said:It seems rather simple to me to interpret what the bible says regarding baptism as a requirment for salvation.
The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be in paradise.
If we can take Jesus at His word (and i believe we can), then the thief was saved without water baptism.
The necessity for water Baptism does not bind in certain cases which allows us to hope that there is some means by which those who die without water Baptism may be saved.
For instance, Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with him in Paradise. As far as we know, the thief wasn't baptized, but since there was no possibility for him to be baptized, the requirement for water Baptism was not binding.
Basically, Baptism is necessary for those for whom there is a reasonable chance of being able to be baptized and who have a reasonable chance of knowing or learning the necessity of Baptism.
Those who die without Baptism we can pray for and entrust to the mercy of God.
Sometimes we have to trust in God to do the right thing.
mojoala said:The necessity for water Baptism does not bind in certain cases which allows us to hope that there is some means by which those who die without water Baptism may be saved.
For instance, Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with him in Paradise. As far as we know, the thief wasn't baptized, but since there was no possibility for him to be baptized, the requirement for water Baptism was not binding.
Basically, Baptism is necessary for those for whom there is a reasonable chance of being able to be baptized and who have a reasonable chance of knowing or learning the necessity of Baptism.
Those who die without Baptism we can pray for and entrust to the mercy of God.
Sometimes we have to trust in God to do the right thing.
Where do you find this "reasonable chance" doctrine in scripture?
Lagardo said:It seems rather simple to me to interpret what the bible says regarding baptism as a requirment for salvation.
The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be in paradise.
If we can take Jesus at His word (and i believe we can), then the thief was saved without water baptism.
Firstly the thief had what is called a 'baptism of desire'. When he said 'Lord, remember me when you enter your kingdom', he was expressing a belief that Jesus was divine and a desire to follow him. This is why John the Baptist, Joseph and some martyrs who died for the Christian faith without the opportunity of baptism can still be safely said to be saints.
Naturally the thief was unable to do anything by way of receiving baptism by water at that time, or at all before his death, neither could Jesus so baptise him if he had wished it. This is one of the reasons There are, however, some points to be considered:
1) Jesus didn't baptise anyone while he was alive. Baptism is a symbol of entry into the community of his followers, no need to show this symbolically if Jesus was still bodily alive and you could do it really. This is why he didn't command the apostles to baptise until just before he left them.
2) Remember John saying 'I baptise with water, He will baptise with the Holy Spirit?' And to Jesus he said 'you should baptise me'. Nevertheless Jesus DID permit John to baptise him to set the example for his followers. So he was mandating baptism by water, but clearly this was only for after he was no longer physically around.
I would say the thief, like the Apostles, wouldn't have to be baptised with water. Everyone who becomes a believer since the Ascension of Jesus when he commanded baptism by water, would need to be if at all possible.
Interesting question though.