Is belief the hinge of our salvation?

[skypair]

I assume you missed this post, Havensdad

Scripture says we have no faith. Therefore God must give it too us. In FACT, scripture says that God assigns to each man a specific amount of faith. (Romans 12:3).

And this thread is about faith vs. belief. Perhaps you have not heard my "discourse" on this but...

Belief = hope. Though we may hear something, we have no proof. "The wind listeth where it will..." Yet belief is equated, even in the Bible, with 'hope' because we "invest" in that belief by repenting of self and turning to Christ (commonly called "conversion").

Faith = Heb 11:1 -- "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for [believed], the evidence of things not seen [salvation]."

So here's how those terms go together (and by which I had hoped that Cals and non-Cals could agree). We all hear the gospel in one way or another (Rom 1:19) --

if we believe on Christ (giving our lives to Him), we are regenerated ("born again"), indwelt by the Holy Spirit --

indwelling gives us faith that we are saved!! Indwelling of the Spirit is the SUBSTANCE of what we hoped for (a "Slice" of heaven) and is the EVIDENCE (the "earnest of our inheritance") of our salvation!!

Now we go on in our Christian lives having hope for things we still have not seen (i.e. the rapture) but always standing on the faith of things we have seen!!

...

So your "sovereign in election" God never lets His children get run over by cars?? :tonofbricks:

Do you know what would be "unloving," Hd? To set up a glorious restroom and post a sign outside, "Whites Only." You've just basically told me that God doesn't invite everyone into His heaven -- that unless you are one of His "fair-haired elect," God not only isn't going to let you in but is going to exercise His wrath on you who have no other option but to commit the sin that provokes God's wrath! And this is LOVE?? To me, it sounds like Hitler ... Stalin ... Nero. Guess whose theology looks "unloving" now.

skypair[/QUOTE]

 

[Rubato 1]

And this thread is about faith vs. belief. Perhaps you have not heard my "discourse" on this but...

Belief = hope. Though we may hear something, we have no proof. "The wind listeth where it will..." Yet belief is equated, even in the Bible, with 'hope' because we "invest" in that belief by repenting of self and turning to Christ (commonly called "conversion").

Faith = Heb 11:1 -- "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for [believed], the evidence of things not seen [salvation]."

Sorry to jump in the middle, but if you will allow me, Skypair, I would like to show why I believe that faith and belief are exactly the same thing.

Belief does not = hope
Hope is something you are not sure about.
Belief is something you have chosen to be sure about.

Belief and faith are the same, because:
Belief (in the context of salvation) is believing the promises of God. This is how all saints from all ages were saved, shown in Hebrews 11.
Faith is believing the promises of God, as shown by Hebrews 11.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So faith is something you believe though you have no evidence that it is true. There is nothing to see, there is no substance to touch. Faith is believing what God said only because he said it. Faith and belief are the same thing.

If you, skypair, offer me a rickety old chair, which may not look trustworthy, but with the reassurance that you checked it out and it is OK; then for me to take you at your word and sit w/o checking first (evidence seen, substance felt) is faith in your word, it is believing on you. If the chair collapses, it was blind faith (and I wouldn't put it past you ). If the chair holds, it was blessed faith, like the faith we have in God.

Faith is choosing to believe someone just because they said it. What other definition for 'Faith' and 'Belief' is there, if it is not taking someone at their word?

 

[Havensdad]

And this thread is about faith vs. belief. Perhaps you have not heard my "discourse" on this but...

Belief = hope. Though we may hear something, we have no proof. "The wind listeth where it will..." Yet belief is equated, even in the Bible, with 'hope' because we "invest" in that belief by repenting of self and turning to Christ (commonly called "conversion").

Faith = Heb 11:1 -- "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for [believed], the evidence of things not seen [salvation]."

So here's how those terms go together (and by which I had hoped that Cals and non-Cals could agree). We all hear the gospel in one way or another (Rom 1:19) --

if we believe on Christ (giving our lives to Him), we are regenerated ("born again"), indwelt by the Holy Spirit --

I pretty much agree with Calvin. First, belief does not equal hope. Belief (the english word) is a conviction (not just of the mind) that something is true. FAITH is believing and trusting in something, and submitting ourselves to that belief. (Such as the rocking chair example above. If someone said "I believe you" but then refused to sit in it, it is evident he does not have faith and trust).

Faith comes through the Holy Spirit, BY the Word of God. When we respond to that faith (which we cannot help but do), by repenting and putting our hope and trust in Christ (and by implication, submission, or "putting ourselves in his hands": see rocking chair example, above), we become a "new Creature".

Paul describes the Christian life, as if we are sentenced to dragging a dead corpse around with us everywhere. We WISH to do good, but sometimes that old dead guy on our back messes things up. And when he does, according to Paul, we HATE it> A Christian indwelled by the Spirit is not going to just say "Oh, well! Just stuck another sin on that cross, but Jesus can take it!"

Christ said anyone who has faith in him, will do the works he did. What was he talking about? Many translations render it "miraculous" works, but that is nowhere in the text. Matthew Chapter 7 shows that he CANNOT be referring to miracles. Instead, he is speaking of ministering to the sick, prayer, proclamation of the world, separating oneself from the world, etc.

indwelling gives us faith that we are saved!! Indwelling of the Spirit is the SUBSTANCE of what we hoped for (a "Slice" of heaven) and is the EVIDENCE (the "earnest of our inheritance") of our salvation!!

Now we go on in our Christian lives having hope for things we still have not seen (i.e. the rapture) but always standing on the faith of things we have seen!!

It does more than that. It leads us and guides us to righteousness. It makes us a new creature, someone different than the old sinful self.

...

So your "sovereign in election" God never lets His children get run over by cars?? :tonofbricks:

Do you know what would be "unloving," Hd? To set up a glorious restroom and post a sign outside, "Whites Only." You've just basically told me that God doesn't invite everyone into His heaven -- that unless you are one of His "fair-haired elect," God not only isn't going to let you in but is going to exercise His wrath on you who have no other option but to commit the sin that provokes God's wrath! And this is LOVE?? To me, it sounds like Hitler ... Stalin ... Nero. Guess whose theology looks "unloving" now.

skypair

If your going to put it that way, then imagine there are five hundred brutal serial killers, absolutely wretched people, that are sentenced to die. They all fall in quicksand. Five of them are your Children, whom you love, despite what they have done. So you stretch out your hand and rescue them, totally because of your Grace, and allow the others to receive the punishment their wickedness deserves.

Btw >Calvinism never says that God doesn't have REASONS for choosing who he has> he is not throwing dice

 

[webdog]

A Christian indwelled by the Spirit is not going to just say "Oh, well! Just stuck another sin on that cross, but Jesus can take it!"

Very true...if they are walking in the Spirit. A Christian who gives in to the 'natural man' would, though.

 

[Havensdad]

Very true...if they are walking in the Spirit. A Christian who gives in to the 'natural man' would, though.

Could you please show the scripture to back up the separation between discipleship and salvation?

Paul says it's ALL a work of the spirit> therefore there is no such thing as a Christian who is "walking" in darkness.

A Christian who gives in to the "natural man", would be miserable, and tore up over what he is doing. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit is not in him. There is no "new man" at all, if there is no battle.

 

[webdog]

Could you please show the scripture to back up the separation between discipleship and salvation?

Paul says it's ALL a work of the spirit> therefore there is no such thing as a Christian who is "walking" in darkness.

A Christian who gives in to the "natural man", would be miserable, and tore up over what he is doing. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit is not in him. There is no "new man" at all, if there is no battle.

Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires

reign (rān)
noun

1. royal power, authority, or rule; sovereignty
2. dominance, prevalence, or sway the reign of good will
3. the period of rule, dominance, sway, etc.

I would say if sin is dominating your life, you most definately are "walking" in it! Have you ever went through a period like this in your life? I did...for 20 years! Don't tell me a christian can't walk in darkness! If you can't, Paul's words mean nothing, and his warnings of doing just that are foolishness.

 

[Havensdad]

Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires

reign (rān)
noun

1. royal power, authority, or rule; sovereignty
2. dominance, prevalence, or sway the reign of good will
3. the period of rule, dominance, sway, etc.

Hehe...keep reading...

WHY are you saying not to let sin reign, Brother Paul?

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

12:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?


If you are a slave to sin, it is your master, and you are not in fact saved. BTW, TECHNICALLY "let" is not present in the text (of Romans 6:12): it is inserted by the translators. This text does not necessarily have to be conditional, at all.

Paul is very clear that sin WONT reign in a Christian. See the word "dominion"...

 

[webdog]

Hehe...keep reading...

WHY are you saying not to let sin reign, Brother Paul?

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

12:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?


If you are a slave to sin, it is your master, and you are not in fact saved. BTW, TECHNICALLY "let" is not present in the text (of Romans 6:12): it is inserted by the translators. This text does not necessarily have to be conditional, at all.

Paul is very clear that sin WONT reign in a Christian. See the word "dominion"...

Let's try this again...

Romans 6:8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

It is quite apparent by the context what Paul is stating. Why jump from chapter 6 to 12? The context we are dealing with is Paul addressing believers. Look at verse 16...

16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

We are the ones who offer ourselves to being a slave, either a slave of righteousness or a slave of sin. If one cannot be a slave to sin, then that would make all believers unable to sin.

 

[Havensdad]

Let's try this again...

Romans 6:8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

It is quite apparent by the context what Paul is stating. Why jump from chapter 6 to 12? The context we are dealing with is Paul addressing believers. Look at verse 16...

16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

We are the ones who offer ourselves to being a slave, either a slave of righteousness or a slave of sin. If one cannot be a slave to sin, then that would make all believers unable to sin.

I did not "jump". Everything was in context: it was 6:16, not 12. Typo.

You did not look at the very verse you quoted. Paul asks a question. Look at verse
15

What then? lAre we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,3 you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

The consequence of being a slave of sin is death. If you are a slave to sin, you have never been saved.


The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. Ro 6:15-16

 

[webdog]

"you are slaves of the one whom you obey,"

The consequence of being a slave of sin is death. If you are a slave to sin, you have never been saved.

That is not what the text is saying, but what you are making the text say. It states plainly that "if" you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you then become a slave of the one whom you obey. Remember, these are believers he is talking to, so using your theory, a believer can then be lost.

 

[Havensdad]

"you are slaves of the one whom you obey,"

That is not what the text is saying, but what you are making the text say. It states plainly that "if" you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you then become a slave of the one whom you obey. Remember, these are believers he is talking to, so using your theory, a believer can then be lost.

Funny that people build a theology, assuming things were different than they are now. Paul DID NOT write Romans, just to believers. There are multiple places in Romans, and several of his letters for that matter, where it is clear Paul understands there will be unbelievers mixed in.

Does your Church have an altar call? Do preachers preach Hell and Judgment to Churches, even when everyone present are members? Of course they do. That's because Jesus said there were MANY who would call him Lord, but not be saved.

Paul was well aware of the fact that there were many "false brethren" who had crept into these churches. Therefore it would be a HUGE exegetical error to discount the possibility of salvific messages in them.

Paul clearly states that sin WILL NOT have dominion over a Christian> not "should not".

 

[webdog]

Funny that people build a theology, assuming things were different than they are now. Paul DID NOT write Romans, just to believers. There are multiple places in Romans, and several of his letters for that matter, where it is clear Paul understands there will be unbelievers mixed in.

Romans 6 is not addressed to believers? That's the first I have heard of that...

Paul clearly states that sin WILL NOT have dominion over a Christian> not "should not".

Yes, sin has no dominion over the Spirit. HOWEVER we can (and do) give in to sin, we do let sin "reign" at times, else Paul is a liar. Like I said, the only conclusion to your view has NO believer sinning since they are indwelt with the Spirit.

Since we are on Romans 6, verse 4 says...
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Some translations state "should". It is NOT a guarantee!

 

[Havensdad]

Romans 6 is not addressed to believers? That's the first I have heard of that...

No. It is written to the church, or gathering of believers, in the city of Rome, which just like today, contained many who were not saved.

Yes, sin has no dominion over the Spirit. HOWEVER we can (and do) give in to sin, we do let sin "reign" at times, else Paul is a liar. Like I said, the only conclusion to your view has NO believer sinning since they are indwelt with the Spirit.

Not true. At times we sin, but just as Paul stated when he did so, he HATED it, and it was, in fact not him doing it at all.

If we "walk in darkness" we are "of the devil".

 

[webdog]

I edited my above post when you were posting...

Since we are on Romans 6, verse 4 says...
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Some translations state "should". It is NOT a guarantee!

 

[Havensdad]

Since we are on Romans 6, verse 4 says...
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Some translations state "should". It is NOT a guarantee!

The word "might" is not in the text at all. It is a figure of speech, inserted by the translators, that does not even imply any uncertainty. Technically it just says:

"so we also walk in newness of Life".

Lol. Thanks for the help.

 

[webdog]

The word "might" is not in the text at all. It is a figure of speech, inserted by the translators, that does not even imply any uncertainty. Technically it just says:

"so we also walk in newness of Life".

Lol. Thanks for the help.

Funny how your arguments stem from "that word is not in the text". did the translators err (conveniently each time it goes against your view)?

How about Galations 5?
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh

 

[Havensdad]

Funny how your arguments stem from "that word is not in the text". did the translators err (conveniently each time it goes against your view)?

I cannot help the bias of translators. That is why New Testament Greek is required in Seminaries. Are you saying we should base our doctrines on words that are not even in the text? Never mind the fact that "might" isn't even being used to convey uncertainty here, anyway.

How about Galations 5?
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh

Thats right. If we walk in th Spirit, we will not carry out the desires of the flesh> i.e. we won't sin.

When we, as Christians, are NOT walking in the Spirit, we DO sin. And as Paul says, the new man that is within us hates it. We cry out "Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death!"

When we are walking in the Spirit, we don't sin. When we are not, we Do sin, and we're miserable.

 

[webdog]

I cannot help the bias of translators. That is why New Testament Greek is required in Seminaries. Are you saying we should base our doctrines on words that are not even in the text? Never mind the fact that "might" isn't even being used to convey uncertainty here, anyway.

We should base our doctrine on the author's intent, regardless if an "if" or "should" is missing.