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Is Faithfulness Required for Physical Blessings?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by KenH, Jun 25, 2003.

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  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    On a now closed thread, Eyes on Jesus stated:

    Totally leaving out the present political situation in the Middle East(PLEASE!), we read in the Old Testament that God promised physical blessings to the Israelites if they were faithful to Him and disaster physically if they were unfaithful to Him.

    Therefore, on what basis does anyone think that, while remaining in unfaithfulness at the present time from 1948 to the present, modern day Jews are to be physically blessed by God with occupying land that He promised their ancestors they could possess only while being faithful to Him?
     
    #1 KenH, Jun 25, 2003
  2. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    I posted this on another thread and I would like for someone to explain why God changed His mind concerning His promise to Abraham and his seed.
    Murph
     
    #2 C.S. Murphy, Jun 25, 2003
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    it was not a conditional covenant that God gave the land to the Jewish people by, it was given to them by a promise.

    Not really. God's covenant with the Israelites was conditional: I will be you God if you will be my people.
     
    #3 Johnv, Jun 25, 2003
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The issue for this thread is not whether God will one day bless the Jews with physical land again at some point. That is a different issue.

    The issue is whether God will bless the Jews with physical land again before they come to Jesus in repentance and faith. It is my understanding that dispensationalists claim that the current state of Israel is a result of the land promise even though the vast majority of the Jews in Israel are in rebellion against Jesus Christ. Is my understanding correct? If so, then why are the Jews being blessed with physical land when God in the Old Testament promised them that could only stay in the land while they were faithful to Him, and He told them that rebellion would cause them to be expelled from the land?
     
    #4 KenH, Jun 25, 2003
  5. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Why is that a different issue?
     
    #5 LadyEagle, Jun 25, 2003
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I actually thought I could communicate, but maybe not. Let me try again. My premise is this:

    The current modern state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy as they are in violation of Deuteronomy chapter 28, verses 15-68. Therefore, before the Jews can be returned to the land in fulfillment of any Bible prophecy there will have to first be a mass of Jews coming to Jesus in repentance and faith.

    Now, is the issue clear enough?
     
    #6 KenH, Jun 25, 2003
  7. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member
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    Totally leaving out the present political situation in the Middle East(PLEASE!), we read in the Old Testament that God promised physical blessings to the Israelites if they were faithful to Him and disaster physically if they were unfaithful to Him.

    Therefore, on what basis does anyone think that, while remaining in unfaithfulness at the present time from 1948 to the present, modern day Jews are to be physically blessed by God with occupying land that He promised their ancestors they could possess only while being faithful to Him?     </font>[/QUOTE]Job makes it clear that physical blessing and hardships are not to always be linked to our own attempts (or lack) to attain righteousness.

    God blesses whom He desires to bless.
     
    #7 Jonathan, Jun 25, 2003
  8. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Plus there is always a faithful remnant. [​IMG]
     
    #8 LadyEagle, Jun 25, 2003
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Fine. I guess all of the dispensationalists are going to run away from Deuteronomy chapter 28 and all of the Old Testament examples of how God dealt with Israel when they were in rebellion against Him. Maybe dispensationalists don't take the warnings literally in Deuteronomy chapter 28.
     
    #9 KenH, Jun 25, 2003
  10. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Do we earn God's blessings? Does anyone?
     
    #10 donnA, Jun 25, 2003
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    I posted this on another thread and I would like for someone to explain why God changed His mind concerning His promise to Abraham and his seed. Murph

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001657

    Ken, I understand your question perfectly, and am also waiting for a response.

    [ June 25, 2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Grasshopper ]
     
    #11 Grasshopper, Jun 25, 2003
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Good point. But we are not talking about salvation here or even blessings in general. This thread is about a very specific promise God made, and which dispensationalists claim was fulfilled (again) starting in 1948, that the Israelites were to be blessed with the land of Canaan based upon their faithfulness to God and would be removed from the land if they were unfaithful. The vast majority of current Jewish occupants of the old land of Canaan are clearly in rebellion against our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet, dispensationalists, as I understand their position, claim that what started in 1948 was fulfillment of Bible prophecy even though the Jews being blessed with the physical land are in rebellion against our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I wait for dispensationalists to explain why Deuteronomy chapter 28 is being ignored in their eschatology.

    By the way, I am not ruling out that a mass conversion of Jews to Jesus Christ in the future could result in their return to the land that would fulfill Bible prophecy(neither am I ruling it in). I am only stating that based on the Old Testament promises and warnings of God that the current occupants of the old land of Canaan are not there because of a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
     
    #12 KenH, Jun 25, 2003
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Some covenants demand conditions to be fulfilled on the part of BOTH parties. Other covenants are unilateral and dependent only on ONE person, no matter what the other party does.

    God's covenant with Abraham (and his physical seed through Isaac - Jews) was ONE PARTY. It did not matter what they did - good, bad or ugly - God made a sovereign choice.

    He did the same with Noah. And Bob. Nothing I did, do, or will do caused God to make a New Covenant with me. His action alone.
     
    #13 Dr. Bob, Jun 25, 2003
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I believe Deuteronomy chapter 28 is literally true and the physical descendants of Abraham had to be faithful to remain, or to be restored, to the land.

    I guess the dispensationalist claim that their viewpoint interprets the Bible literally is nothing but smoke and mirrors if they run into a passage that is DEVASTATING to their position.

    Thanks, ya'll. I am glad that is settled now. [​IMG]
     
    #14 KenH, Jun 25, 2003
  15. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    To some of us, the issue IS settled. That's why we don't have to go around from thread to thread bringing up premill dispy. LOL!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    OK. So you haven't ruled out a "mass conversion." So which part of the Bible says they have to have a mass conversion before they return to the land that would fulfill Bible prophecy?

    Isn't this kinda like which came first, the chicken or the egg? :eek:

    And why does it matter? If a person doesn't believe we are in the end times & doesn't believe in the dispensations, what difference does it make? (...unless one isn't really SURE the dispensationalists are wrong....Ah HA! ;) )
     
    #15 LadyEagle, Jun 25, 2003
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Hey, SheEagle9/11, as far as I am concerned I am through discussing dispensational premillennialism as the discussions on these various threads have provided me with the necessary information I need to know about how those advocating that viewpoint attempt to defend it. I don't think I would learn anything new by continuing to discuss it.

    Talk with ya later(on some other subject). [​IMG]
     
    #16 KenH, Jun 25, 2003
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    If a person doesn't believe we are in the end times

    End times, another topic preMill disp. don't take literal.

    Hebrews 1: 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 9: 26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Time statements were one of the first things that led me to preterism. Could someone please define Last Days? Oviously the writer of Hebrews is confused, He thought Jesus came in the Last Days.
     
    #17 Grasshopper, Jun 25, 2003
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