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Is Grace necessary to man's Salvation?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Yelsew, Apr 3, 2003.

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  1. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    If Grace is necessary to man's salvation, why would one believe in predestination or election? Neither predestination nor election require God's Grace. That which is predetermined by God will come to pass regardless of the presence of Grace. Thus "for by grace are ye saved..." is negated by election and predestination.

    Both predestination and election occured before God created, and God's grace was not manifest to man before the creation.
     
    #1 Yelsew, Apr 3, 2003
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Non-sequitur.

    One either deserves something or one does not deserve something. If one does not deserve something (salvation) but is given it, then one receives unmerited favor (grace).

    Whether that person was predestined to receive grace or not does not have anything whatsoever to do with whether or not grace is necessary.
     
    #2 npetreley, Apr 3, 2003
  3. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    however, God's Grace is an eternal attribute He possesses, He did not 'become' full of Grace and mercy simply when man chose to sin. To think He did is equal to denying the forknowledge of God.

    the election, predestination are founded upon the eternal Grace of God, apart from the Grace of God no man would have been able to be 'saved.' Without the Grace of God He would not have entered into covenant with His only Begotten Son to accept the fulfillment of the covenant of works at the hand of Christ, nor to provide this sinless substitute as sacrifice and thus redeem man.

    Hope that helps you understand the Grace of God much better than what you presently do.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas

    Edited to remove my answer from within the quote of your post...didn't want you to think you were arguing with yourself... :D
     
    #3 Frogman, Apr 3, 2003
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Election is a predetermined outcome, therefore Grace in not necessary, unless you are applying grace to the pre-creation election. If one is 'saved' from before the foundation of the world as election dictates the elect are, then there is no reason for Grace in this present age.

    However, If election doctrine is false, then Grace is necessary to enable man to hear the Word and believe unto salvation, just as Jesus told us we must.

    I thank God for his Grace, for without it, I would have died when I first sinned. With it God gave me the opportunity to hear His Word, believe, and become strengthened in my faith.
     
    #4 Yelsew, Apr 3, 2003
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Yelsew,

    I thank God for the testimony that is in your heart, for otherwise I would find the constant denials of scripture from you to be difficult to deal with.

    Grace is necessary either way you look at the question, simply because without Grace every individual would be worthy of condemnation and more, none of us would care because we would not ever have known otherwise.

    This is the predicament of the lost at the present time, they see what is manifest around them in the world and are unable to see or to 'receive' the Spiritual things of God.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #5 Frogman, Apr 3, 2003
  6. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    You have an oddly distorted view of Grace.

    Salvation is a free gift from God. It is a gift given to those who believe on His only begotten Son, Jesus, while His Grace prevails.

    Grace is not something we humans receive, salvation is. Grace is not a commodity that God dispenses as one would dispense candy, i.e., "Here's your piece of grace". Either Grace is present or Grace is not present. While God's Grace is present, it is present for every human and "whosoever will believe in Jesus" receives salvation! Regardless of election.

    When God removes his Grace, no on can receive salvation, save for the 144,000 out of the tribes of Israel.
     
    #6 Yelsew, Apr 3, 2003
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    The point is, with election, grace is not necessary. Election is a preset, predetermined condition that requires no grace. At least that is what the Calvinists on this bbs have been declaring. The Calvinist message has been that only the elect are saved, and that their salvation is set in stone from before the foundation of the world.

    Scriptures tell me that God is abiding in his Grace so that His word is heard and believed unto salvation and that anyone who believes is saved. The scriptures say that there is an elect from the foundation of the world, but it doesn't say that gentiles are among the elect. It does say that the gentiles are granted a time whereby they may be included in in Salvation by belief.
     
    #7 Yelsew, Apr 3, 2003
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    So Grace is only for God?
    In order that he would be restrained and not destroy mankind before there is an opportunity for hearing the Gospel?

    We still disagree.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #8 Frogman, Apr 3, 2003
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Make sure that you understand that the restraint that God experiences is self-restraint, and not anything caused by man or any outside influence.

    For what reason would God restrain himself from executing his justice, if not to permit his created but sinful man the time to hear his Word, and believe, and repent from sinning?
     
    #9 Yelsew, Apr 4, 2003
  10. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    You speak as if Time may run out before God is ready.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #10 Frogman, Apr 4, 2003
  11. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Time is running out for man to receive the free gift of God. God said that he will not always strive with man. Keep your garments clean and your lamps trimmed and full of oil.
     
    #11 Yelsew, Apr 4, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    You quoted me, but did not address my post, why?

    I said, as I quoted above:

    You speak as if Time may run out before God is ready.

    You said something about time running out on man.

    I don't/didn't see the connection, except that you continually try to put man into the place of God.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #12 Frogman, Apr 5, 2003
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