Is it true "Sabbath days equal the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th Sabbaths in the Jewish calendar Feast months"? (Dr Walter)
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Is it true Sabbath days equal the 7th, 14th in the Feast months?
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
GE:
Re:
DHK,
"The Sabbath has always remained the seventh day. On the seventh day, the last day God rested. This would never change, and has not to this day. But it is still for the Jews."
DW:
The sabbath command did not specify any particular day "of the week" nor does it specify such in Genesis 2 as your response suggests. Indeed, the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the first day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month. Indeed, the first, eighth, fifteenth and twenty second Sabbath days equal the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th Sabbaths in the Jewish calendar Feast months.”
Re:
“The sabbath command did not specify any particular day "of the week" nor does it specify such in Genesis 2”
Answer:
“in Genesis 2”, to which “the sabbath command” refers and relies on, it is stated word for word in the Hebrew, “On the day the Seventh Day God ended his work which He had made; and He rested on the day the Seventh Day from all his work which He had made. And God blessed the day the Seventh Day, and sanctified (put apart “the day the Seventh Day”) BECAUSE THAT: in IT (“the day the Seventh Day”), He had rested from all his work which God had created and made : THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS / CREATING … WHEN, they were created.” Period.
The Sabbath was, therefore, specified in Genesis 2 “THE DAY THE” particular “Day The Seventh", of the first ever ‘WEEK’ of seven days in which God created and made and finished “all his work”. Thus does the Sabbath Command, specify “the day The Seventh Day” as such as “the day The Seventh Day” OF THE WEEK.
We are speaking English, which has a perfect equivalent of the first ever seven days in which God created and made and finished “all his work”, namely, the idiomatic expression, ‘THE WEEK’, which people who speak Hebrew, would express in the IDENTICAL PARTICULAR words as are found in the texts of Genesis 2 and Exodus 20.
Re:
“Indeed, the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the first day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month.”
Answer:
The great flaw in your ‘argument’ is your indiscriminate generalizing “the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23” as were they “regarded as” all of the same category and kind and ‘day’ per se, “the day the Seventh Day” … OF THE WEEK surprise, surprise!
Maybe the even bigger misconception in your reasoning is YOUR – nobody’s than YOUR – taking for granted, “what would be regarded as the first day "of the week"”! Thus you ARE getting entangled in your own words and “demands” and “specifications” and stuff.
Now listen to yourself! “… the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the_first_ day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month”— that now, BESIDES the fact there is nothing like “… the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 … in a 28 or 29 day month” to be found “in Leviticus 23”. I thought you meant the Sabbath Days as were they observed on what actually WAS, the _last_ or “the day The Seventh Day”, “…of the week” without exception! …according to you, of course.
But, forget about this and let the Sabbaths fall on the first or, on the last and Seventh Days “of the week”, how does your arithmetic work out “in Leviticus 23”? For example, in between verses 24 to 39…. “in a 28 or 29 day month”?
“In the FIRST day of the (Seventh) Month shall ye have a _sabbath_. … Also on the TENTH day of this Seventh Month … that same day … shall be unto you a sabbath of rest.” Now work out how these ‘sabbaths’, every time fell on “the day The Seventh Day” … “of the week”?!
Nonsense!
No, these ‘sabbaths’ “in the FIRST day” and “on the TENTH day” “of this Seventh Month”, ARE ONLY POSSIBLE IF they were ‘sabbaths / sabbath-days’ quote: “_BESIDE THE SABBATHS (—of “the day the Seventh Day Sabbath”—) of the LORD GOD”!
Therefore these ‘sabbaths’ were to be “UNTO YOU a sabbath” and, “YOUR sabbath”, verse 32, because, “THESE ARE THE FEASTS / ‘Feast-sabbaths’, of the LORD”, “DISTINCT FROM / BESIDE, the Sabbaths OF THE LORD”.
And thus it was made crystal clear right from the start “in Leviticus 23” but was simply discarded by Dr Walter.
Leviticus 23:2-4…
“Concerning the feasts of the LORD which _YE_ shall proclaim holy convocations … (Now, before anything else,)
These are MY feasts : Six days shall work be done, but the day The Seventh Day is THE Sabbath of Sabbath’s-rest, an holy convocation. Ye, shall do _NO_ work therein. (It is for the LORD’s work!) It is the Sabbath Day wherever you may dwell (over all the earth. It is not for you to declare or to connect to seasons of the earth.)
(But) the following, are the feasts of the LORD , even holy convocations WHICH _YOU_, MUST DETERMINE / PROCLAIM IN RESPECT TO THEIR _SEASONS_ (of the year: ‘days, months, seasons, years’) ….
See how the “sabbaths”
“BESIDE the Sabbaths” ordinary: “Seventh-Day-Sabbaths of the LORD GOD”,
in BOTH
the “Feast of Booths” and the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”,
the THREE “sabbaths-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Booths”,
the “TENTH day”,
“the FIFTEENTH day”, and
“the eighth day” on the TWENTY SECOND day
of the Seventh Month –),
and
the ONLY “sabbath-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”
from “on the FIFTEENTH day”
“until on the one and twentieth day of the First Month”,
are “appointed” DIFFERENTLY through the month,
– that is, are “appointed” independent and irrespective and
“BESIDE, the Sabbath”, “the Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD” …
… which makes it IMPOSSIBLE “the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the first day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month”
and PROVES …
… these ‘feast-sabbaths’ in any of these feasts could never in EVERY instance have coincided with the Seventh Day Sabbath …
… OR, had to be in any way connected to or determined by the recurrence of the ‘weekly’ Sabbath Day “ON THE SEVENTH DAY, GOD, RESTED”, by having “finished”, and “FINISHED”, by having “rested” through and in Jesus Christ, through and in Resurrection from the dead, “SABBATH’S”!
“Concerning the feasts of the LORD which _YE_ shall proclaim holy convocations … (Now, before anything else,)
These are MY feasts : Six days shall work be done, but the day The Seventh Day is THE Sabbath of Sabbath’s-rest, an holy convocation. Ye, shall do _NO_ work therein. (It is for the LORD’s work!) It is the Sabbath Day wherever you may dwell (over all the earth. It is not for you to declare or to connect to seasons of the earth.)
(But) the following, are the feasts of the LORD , even holy convocations WHICH _YOU_, MUST DETERMINE / PROCLAIM IN RESPECT TO THEIR _SEASONS_ (of the year: ‘days, months, seasons, years’) ….
See how the “sabbaths”
“BESIDE the Sabbaths” ordinary: “Seventh-Day-Sabbaths of the LORD GOD”,
in BOTH
the “Feast of Booths” and the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”,
the THREE “sabbaths-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Booths”,
the “TENTH day”,
“the FIFTEENTH day”, and
“the eighth day” on the TWENTY SECOND day
of the Seventh Month –),
and
the ONLY “sabbath-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”
from “on the FIFTEENTH day”
“until on the one and twentieth day of the First Month”,
are “appointed” DIFFERENTLY through the month,
– that is, are “appointed” independent and irrespective and
“BESIDE, the Sabbath”, “the Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD” …
… which makes it IMPOSSIBLE “the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the first day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month”
and PROVES …
… these ‘feast-sabbaths’ in any of these feasts could never in EVERY instance have coincided with the Seventh Day Sabbath …
… OR, had to be in any way connected to or determined by the recurrence of the ‘weekly’ Sabbath Day “ON THE SEVENTH DAY, GOD, RESTED”, by having “finished”, and “FINISHED”, by having “rested” through and in Jesus Christ, through and in Resurrection from the dead, “SABBATH’S”!
After all, just how on earth can it be true, “…..the first, eighth, fifteenth and twenty second Sabbath days equal the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th Sabbaths in the Jewish calendar Feast months”?
DW:
“Your logic is not logical. We are told it [the Seventh Day] is the "seventh day" but we are not told it was the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." It can include it but it is not restricted to it and that is obvious by the fact that the SABBATH command is applied to 1st, 8th, 15th and 21st days of the month. It is applied to "years" especially the 50th year and it is applied to "months." The very fact that the sabbath command is applied to other periods of time than the seventh day and to periods of time longer than a "day" demonstrates it is not to be understood as a restricted to the seventh day "of the week." Therefore, the Sabbath is not restricted to Saturday but may be applied to Saturday.”
GE:
Re:
DW, “Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." It can include it but it is not restricted to it”….
“Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"” is your, UNTRUE, generalisation, again.
Because wherever it is said “The Seventh Day” WITH REFERENCE TO, the creation – as in Genesis 2, Exodus 20 and 31, and Hebrews 4 and Mark 2 –, the number and sequence of days AS THAT single UNIT-of-seven-days and single EVENT-of-seven-days, formed the determinative ORIGIN, of :- ‘the week’!
Then wherever “The Seventh Day” within and ‘OF’ THIS presupposed unit-of- seven-days and ITS presupposed UNBROKEN recurrence through all time is the mentioned, the referred-to, or the supposed, “The-Seventh-Day-_OF-THE-WEEK_”, is the logical and natural NAME, for / of “The-Seventh-Day”.
There is absolutely nothing – for the BIBLE-believer in any case – unprecedented or illogical or unhistorical or mysterious to be understood about ‘The Seventh Day’ as the “Seventh-Day-of-the-week”. Your problematic interpretation “the Sabbath command (is nowhere) limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"”, and “can include it but it is not restricted to it”, clearly is designed to impress in order to confuse.
DW:
“Your logic is not logical. We are told it [the Seventh Day] is the "seventh day" but we are not told it was the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." It can include it but it is not restricted to it and that is obvious by the fact that the SABBATH command is applied to 1st, 8th, 15th and 21st days of the month. It is applied to "years" especially the 50th year and it is applied to "months." The very fact that the sabbath command is applied to other periods of time than the seventh day and to periods of time longer than a "day" demonstrates it is not to be understood as a restricted to the seventh day "of the week." Therefore, the Sabbath is not restricted to Saturday but may be applied to Saturday.”
GE:
Re:
DW, “Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." It can include it but it is not restricted to it”….
“Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"” is your, UNTRUE, generalisation, again.
Because wherever it is said “The Seventh Day” WITH REFERENCE TO, the creation – as in Genesis 2, Exodus 20 and 31, and Hebrews 4 and Mark 2 –, the number and sequence of days AS THAT single UNIT-of-seven-days and single EVENT-of-seven-days, formed the determinative ORIGIN, of :- ‘the week’!
Then wherever “The Seventh Day” within and ‘OF’ THIS presupposed unit-of- seven-days and ITS presupposed UNBROKEN recurrence through all time is the mentioned, the referred-to, or the supposed, “The-Seventh-Day-_OF-THE-WEEK_”, is the logical and natural NAME, for / of “The-Seventh-Day”.
There is absolutely nothing – for the BIBLE-believer in any case – unprecedented or illogical or unhistorical or mysterious to be understood about ‘The Seventh Day’ as the “Seventh-Day-of-the-week”. Your problematic interpretation “the Sabbath command (is nowhere) limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"”, and “can include it but it is not restricted to it”, clearly is designed to impress in order to confuse.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Since the Calendar of the Jews is a DATE calendar and not a NAMED DAY (Monday, tues, Wednes, etc.) then necessarily such would be the case. This is not true for the feasts months only but for every month in the Jewish calendar year.
This is particular true in the calendar given them by God. Notice that in the Penteteuch not even the Canaanite names for the months is recognized by God but rather God identifies the months by NUMBERS not by NAMES. God recognizes the days by NUMBERS not by NAMES.
Ge 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Ge 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
Ge 8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Ge 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
Ge 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
This method of Calendar by NUMBER is consistent all the way through the Pentetuech. Later the Israelites used Canaanite and Babylonian NAMES for their months but even until the New Testament they still did not adopt the pagan NAMES for days.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Both you and DHK must add to the Scriptures what the scriptures do not say in order to maintain your position. The Scriptures do not use or say "OF THE WEEK" - nada, zip, nowhere!
What you have is seven days and the seventh day - period. Yes, seven days became the measurement of time known as the "week" but that is not the wording used by God or the restriction used by God in creation or in the fourth commandment. Be honest enough to at least admit this to be true. YOU ADD "week" God does not.
Therefore what you have is a set of seven days - six days are for work and the "seventh day" in that set of seven days is the Sabbath. This Sabbath follows as well as precedes six working days and it is not limited to the calendar "week" by God or by God's Word. That is precisely why the Sabbath law can be applied to other days in the month.
Fact number 2 the term "yom" in the Genesis account and in direct relationship with the institution of the creation Sabbath is used in two different senses. It is used for 24 hour time lengths AS WELL AS FOR TIME LENTHS GREATER THAN 24 HOURS - READ AND NOTE:
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. {created…: Heb. created to make}
4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This is precisely why the Sabbath law can be applied by God to longer lengths of time such as a "month" (seventh) and "year" the Seventh.
This combination of truths also allow God to apply the sabbath law to a month which is both the seventh and the first month.
This combinatin of truths also allows God to apply the Sabbath law to the TENTH day in a month that is neither the seventh or the first in numerical counting.
This combination of truths is why God can apply the Sabbath law to the FIRST day, 50th day, 50th year, etc.
If the Sabbath law, as you and DHK argue, must be restricted to the seventh 24 hour "day" OF THE WEEK then God could not LAWFULLY apply the Sabbath law to anything other than the seventh 24 hour day OF THE WEEK. The fact that He does, and does repeatedly demonstrates your position and DKH's position to be wrong.
Finally, the Jewish month is not divided by the "week" division as that would require every month to be limited to 28 days. However, we read of months that have a 29th day in scripture. However, since the calendar given the Jews by God used neither NAMES for years, months or days but only NUMBERS in the Penteteuch then 7th day Sabbaths would necessarily be the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th in their months.
However, what both you and DHK will not admit to is that the FEAST MONTHS are Old Covenant TYPES of the NEW COVENANT under Christ where the FIRST day sabbaths (1st, 8th, 22nd) predominate the 7th day Sabbaths in relationship to types of Christ and His work of redemption. They prefigure ANOTHER DAY, a greater Sabbath observance for the people of God that commemorates HIS WORK of redemption that is the basis for bringing in a NEW CREATION whereas the 7th day Sabbath is a sign of the OLD CREATION and the OLD COVENANT.
In order to save your own skin you must insist that the 7th day Sabbath is restricted to only a 24 hour use of the term "day" and restricted to what the Scriptures NEVER EVER use in either the creation account or the 4th commandment and that is the terms "OF THE WEEK." However, the truth is that both uses of the term "day" are found in connection with the institution of the creation Sabbath and in connection with the fourth commandment in Leviticus 23. Your position would necessarily make God a Sabbath law breaker as God applies the Sabbath law OUTSIDE of your restrictive definitions.
Quoting DW,
“Both you and DHK must add to the Scriptures what the scriptures do not say in order to maintain your position. The Scriptures do not use or say "OF THE WEEK" - nada, zip, nowhere!”
GE:
Do you consider any English translation “the Scriptures”?
Then have a look here in the KJAV 1611 – as in every English Bible I suppose – Young’s Analytical Concordance, 1977, page 1041 3rd column,
“Week” from Hebrew, ‘shabua’ (from ‘shabbath’ – ‘sabbath’), 19 times;
“Week” from Greek, ‘sabbata’ Plural, (from Hebrew ‘shabbath’ – ‘sabbath’), 7 times;
“Week” from Greek, ‘sabbaton’ Singular, (from Hebrew ‘shabbath’ – ‘sabbath’), 2 times.
Altogether, one score and eight times!
Now I’m not conversant with Hebrew, but to me it looks like of the 17 times the word ‘week’ appears in the English from a Hebrew equivalent, in exactly 9 of those instances you, Dr Walter, claim with insatiable bravado,
“Therefore what you have is a set of seven days - six days are for work and the "seventh day" in that set of seven days is the Sabbath. This Sabbath follows as well as precedes six working days and it is not limited to the calendar "week" by God or by God's Word”
YOU, pal, saying, "the "seventh day" in that set of seven days is the Sabbath", YOU, ADDING the words, “a set of seven days”
--- you "do not say what the Scriptures say in order to maintain your position" ---
because you _CANNOT_ say it in English WITHOUT “ADDING” the words, “set-of-”, to “seven days”—
you CANNOT define the Hebrew concept of “a set of seven days”
– ANY “set of seven days”
UNCONNECTED with “The Seventh-Day-” of the creation-week / Commandment,
OR , connected with “The Seventh-Day-” of the creation-week / Commandment,
WITHOUT DEFINING, “THE WEEK”— “a set of days”,
and ANY “set of seven days”,
whether appearing as “of-the-week” Singular Genitive,
or, as “of-the-weeks” Plural Genitive
--- NO DIFFERENCE!
It’s ‘_ANY_ 'WEEK' you are talking of AND ARE DEFINING, and therefore to allege “The Scriptures do not use or say "OF THE WEEK-” with reference to the creation story or the giving of the Ten Commandments, is to contradict YOURSELF.
The exact same thing could be done in the English translations of the Bible. Instead of having used the expression “week” for “a set of seven days”, the Bible could have been translated with “a set of seven days” instead of 'week' OR POSSIBLY in place of where 'week' is not used though implied. So you would have had to resort to still OTHER words to deny “The Scriptures do not use or say "OF THE WEEK"”.
... How you scalded me, for having spoken of "seven seven days" in Leviticus 23:11,15 ... while you insisted it must be "seven Sabbaths"...!!!
But the IRONY is YOU are the one who assert the fact “the Sabbath is not restricted to Saturday but may be applied to Saturday”, JUST as it – consequently and consistently – is in fact NOT restricted to “a set of” ANY “seven days”, but may be applied to “a set of” ANY, “seven days”.
“Both you and DHK must add to the Scriptures what the scriptures do not say in order to maintain your position. The Scriptures do not use or say "OF THE WEEK" - nada, zip, nowhere!”
GE:
Do you consider any English translation “the Scriptures”?
Then have a look here in the KJAV 1611 – as in every English Bible I suppose – Young’s Analytical Concordance, 1977, page 1041 3rd column,
“Week” from Hebrew, ‘shabua’ (from ‘shabbath’ – ‘sabbath’), 19 times;
“Week” from Greek, ‘sabbata’ Plural, (from Hebrew ‘shabbath’ – ‘sabbath’), 7 times;
“Week” from Greek, ‘sabbaton’ Singular, (from Hebrew ‘shabbath’ – ‘sabbath’), 2 times.
Altogether, one score and eight times!
Now I’m not conversant with Hebrew, but to me it looks like of the 17 times the word ‘week’ appears in the English from a Hebrew equivalent, in exactly 9 of those instances you, Dr Walter, claim with insatiable bravado,
“Therefore what you have is a set of seven days - six days are for work and the "seventh day" in that set of seven days is the Sabbath. This Sabbath follows as well as precedes six working days and it is not limited to the calendar "week" by God or by God's Word”
YOU, pal, saying, "the "seventh day" in that set of seven days is the Sabbath", YOU, ADDING the words, “a set of seven days”
--- you "do not say what the Scriptures say in order to maintain your position" ---
because you _CANNOT_ say it in English WITHOUT “ADDING” the words, “set-of-”, to “seven days”—
you CANNOT define the Hebrew concept of “a set of seven days”
– ANY “set of seven days”
UNCONNECTED with “The Seventh-Day-” of the creation-week / Commandment,
OR , connected with “The Seventh-Day-” of the creation-week / Commandment,
WITHOUT DEFINING, “THE WEEK”— “a set of days”,
and ANY “set of seven days”,
whether appearing as “of-the-week” Singular Genitive,
or, as “of-the-weeks” Plural Genitive
--- NO DIFFERENCE!
It’s ‘_ANY_ 'WEEK' you are talking of AND ARE DEFINING, and therefore to allege “The Scriptures do not use or say "OF THE WEEK-” with reference to the creation story or the giving of the Ten Commandments, is to contradict YOURSELF.
The exact same thing could be done in the English translations of the Bible. Instead of having used the expression “week” for “a set of seven days”, the Bible could have been translated with “a set of seven days” instead of 'week' OR POSSIBLY in place of where 'week' is not used though implied. So you would have had to resort to still OTHER words to deny “The Scriptures do not use or say "OF THE WEEK"”.
... How you scalded me, for having spoken of "seven seven days" in Leviticus 23:11,15 ... while you insisted it must be "seven Sabbaths"...!!!
But the IRONY is YOU are the one who assert the fact “the Sabbath is not restricted to Saturday but may be applied to Saturday”, JUST as it – consequently and consistently – is in fact NOT restricted to “a set of” ANY “seven days”, but may be applied to “a set of” ANY, “seven days”.
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The IRONY, is, yes – as I have before shown –, The great flaw in your ‘argument’ is your indiscriminate generalizing “the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23” as were they “regarded as” all of the same category and kind and ‘day’ per se, “the day the Seventh Day” … OF THE WEEK surprise, surprise!
Maybe the even bigger misconception in your reasoning is YOUR – nobody’s than YOUR – taking for granted, “what would be regarded as the first day "of the week"”! Thus you ARE getting entangled in your own words and “demands” and “specifications” and stuff.
Now listen to yourself! “… the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the_first_ day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month”— that now, BESIDES the fact there is nothing like “… the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 … in a 28 or 29 day month” to be found “in Leviticus 23”. I thought you meant the Sabbath Days as were they observed on what actually WAS, the _last_ or “the day The Seventh Day”, “…of the week” without exception! …according to you, of course.
But, forget about this and let the Sabbaths fall on the first or, on the last and Seventh Days “of the week”, how does your arithmetic work out “in Leviticus 23”? For example, in between verses 24 to 39…. “in a 28 or 29 day month”?
“In the FIRST day of the (Seventh) Month shall ye have a _sabbath_. … Also on the TENTH day of this Seventh Month … that same day … shall be unto you a sabbath of rest.” Now work out how these ‘sabbaths’, every time fell on “the day The Seventh Day” … “of the week”?!
Nonsense!
No, these ‘sabbaths’ “in the FIRST day” and “on the TENTH day” “of this Seventh Month”, ARE ONLY POSSIBLE IF they were ‘sabbaths / sabbath-days’ quote: “_BESIDE THE SABBATHS (—of “the day the Seventh Day Sabbath”—) of the LORD GOD”!
Therefore these ‘sabbaths’ were to be “UNTO YOU a sabbath” and, “YOUR sabbath”, verse 32, because, “THESE ARE THE FEASTS / ‘Feast-sabbaths’, of the LORD”, “DISTINCT FROM / BESIDE, the Sabbaths OF THE LORD”.
And thus it was made crystal clear right from the start “in Leviticus 23” but was simply discarded by Dr Walter.
Leviticus 23:2-4…
“Concerning the feasts of the LORD which _YE_ shall proclaim holy convocations … (Now, before anything else,)
These are MY feasts : Six days shall work be done, but the day The Seventh Day is THE Sabbath of Sabbath’s-rest, an holy convocation. Ye, shall do _NO_ work therein. (It is for the LORD’s work!) It is the Sabbath Day wherever you may dwell (over all the earth. It is not for you to declare or to connect to seasons of the earth.)
(But) the following, are the feasts of the LORD , even holy convocations WHICH _YOU_, MUST DETERMINE / PROCLAIM IN RESPECT TO THEIR _SEASONS_ (of the year: ‘days, months, seasons, years’) ….
See how the “sabbaths”
“BESIDE the Sabbaths” ordinary: “Seventh-Day-Sabbaths of the LORD GOD”,
in BOTH
the “Feast of Booths” and the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”,
the THREE “sabbaths-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Booths”,
the “TENTH day”,
“the FIFTEENTH day”, and
“the eighth day” on the TWENTY SECOND day
of the Seventh Month –),
and
the ONLY “sabbath-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”
from “on the FIFTEENTH day”
“until on the one and twentieth day of the First Month”,
are “appointed” DIFFERENTLY through the month,
– that is, are “appointed” independent and irrespective and
“BESIDE, the Sabbath”, “the Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD” …
… which makes it IMPOSSIBLE “the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the first day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month”
and PROVES …
… these ‘feast-sabbaths’ in any of these feasts could never in EVERY instance have coincided with the Seventh Day Sabbath …
… OR, had to be in any way connected to or determined by the recurrence of the ‘weekly’ Sabbath Day “ON THE SEVENTH DAY, GOD, RESTED”, by having “finished”, and “FINISHED”, by having “rested” through and in Jesus Christ, through and in Resurrection from the dead, “SABBATH’S”!
After all, just how on earth can it be true, “…..the first, eighth, fifteenth and twenty second Sabbath days equal the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th Sabbaths in the Jewish calendar Feast months”?
Maybe the even bigger misconception in your reasoning is YOUR – nobody’s than YOUR – taking for granted, “what would be regarded as the first day "of the week"”! Thus you ARE getting entangled in your own words and “demands” and “specifications” and stuff.
Now listen to yourself! “… the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the_first_ day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month”— that now, BESIDES the fact there is nothing like “… the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 … in a 28 or 29 day month” to be found “in Leviticus 23”. I thought you meant the Sabbath Days as were they observed on what actually WAS, the _last_ or “the day The Seventh Day”, “…of the week” without exception! …according to you, of course.
But, forget about this and let the Sabbaths fall on the first or, on the last and Seventh Days “of the week”, how does your arithmetic work out “in Leviticus 23”? For example, in between verses 24 to 39…. “in a 28 or 29 day month”?
“In the FIRST day of the (Seventh) Month shall ye have a _sabbath_. … Also on the TENTH day of this Seventh Month … that same day … shall be unto you a sabbath of rest.” Now work out how these ‘sabbaths’, every time fell on “the day The Seventh Day” … “of the week”?!
Nonsense!
No, these ‘sabbaths’ “in the FIRST day” and “on the TENTH day” “of this Seventh Month”, ARE ONLY POSSIBLE IF they were ‘sabbaths / sabbath-days’ quote: “_BESIDE THE SABBATHS (—of “the day the Seventh Day Sabbath”—) of the LORD GOD”!
Therefore these ‘sabbaths’ were to be “UNTO YOU a sabbath” and, “YOUR sabbath”, verse 32, because, “THESE ARE THE FEASTS / ‘Feast-sabbaths’, of the LORD”, “DISTINCT FROM / BESIDE, the Sabbaths OF THE LORD”.
And thus it was made crystal clear right from the start “in Leviticus 23” but was simply discarded by Dr Walter.
Leviticus 23:2-4…
“Concerning the feasts of the LORD which _YE_ shall proclaim holy convocations … (Now, before anything else,)
These are MY feasts : Six days shall work be done, but the day The Seventh Day is THE Sabbath of Sabbath’s-rest, an holy convocation. Ye, shall do _NO_ work therein. (It is for the LORD’s work!) It is the Sabbath Day wherever you may dwell (over all the earth. It is not for you to declare or to connect to seasons of the earth.)
(But) the following, are the feasts of the LORD , even holy convocations WHICH _YOU_, MUST DETERMINE / PROCLAIM IN RESPECT TO THEIR _SEASONS_ (of the year: ‘days, months, seasons, years’) ….
See how the “sabbaths”
“BESIDE the Sabbaths” ordinary: “Seventh-Day-Sabbaths of the LORD GOD”,
in BOTH
the “Feast of Booths” and the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”,
the THREE “sabbaths-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Booths”,
the “TENTH day”,
“the FIFTEENTH day”, and
“the eighth day” on the TWENTY SECOND day
of the Seventh Month –),
and
the ONLY “sabbath-of-feast”
of the “Feast of Unleavened Bread”
from “on the FIFTEENTH day”
“until on the one and twentieth day of the First Month”,
are “appointed” DIFFERENTLY through the month,
– that is, are “appointed” independent and irrespective and
“BESIDE, the Sabbath”, “the Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD” …
… which makes it IMPOSSIBLE “the Sabbath days in Leviticus 23 demand they were observed on what would be regarded as the first day "of the week" in a 28 or 29 day month”
and PROVES …
… these ‘feast-sabbaths’ in any of these feasts could never in EVERY instance have coincided with the Seventh Day Sabbath …
… OR, had to be in any way connected to or determined by the recurrence of the ‘weekly’ Sabbath Day “ON THE SEVENTH DAY, GOD, RESTED”, by having “finished”, and “FINISHED”, by having “rested” through and in Jesus Christ, through and in Resurrection from the dead, “SABBATH’S”!
After all, just how on earth can it be true, “…..the first, eighth, fifteenth and twenty second Sabbath days equal the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th Sabbaths in the Jewish calendar Feast months”?
The IRONY is YOU, Dr Walter, are the one who with vehemence FORBID, the fact “the Sabbath is NOT restricted to Saturday” in Leviticus 23:11,15.
Which explains everything....
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Your error is so clear and so easy to see that one must be blind not to see it. Your theory RESTRICTS the Sabbath to Saturday and thus the SABBATH law to Saturday when in fact the Creator of the Sabbath does not restrict the Sabbath law to Saturday. No one denies it may be applied to Saturday but God certainly denies it can be RESTRICTED to Saturday as He applies the Sabbath law to other days.
It makes no difference if it is "a" Sabbath or "the" Sabbath as both find their only basis as a "sabbath" in the sabbath law.
The truth is that the Sabbath law is not RESTRICTED to any day "OF THE WEEK" but is simply the "seventh day" in a set of seven days and is at one and the same time the day that follows as well as precedes six working days and thus the principle is merely six working days preceding and following a sabbath day. As a principle the Sabbath MAY be applied to ANY DAY in the week as long as six days precede and six days follow and therefore can fit ANY CALANDER whether Jewish, Babylonian, Egyptian, etc.
Jewish TRADITION is the only basis for SATURDAY Sabbaths not scripture. Scripture allows the Sabbath law to be applied to any day in a SET OF SEVEN DAYS. Neither Genesis, exodus or Deuteronmy use the words "of the week" because that would condemn God's very own application of the Sabbath law in Leviticus 23 and 25.
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Dr Walter:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71977
“In order to save your own skin you must insist that the 7th day Sabbath is restricted to only a 24 hour use of the term "day" and restricted to what the Scriptures NEVER EVER use in either the creation account or the 4th commandment and that is the terms "OF THE WEEK." However, the truth is that both uses of the term "day" are found in connection with the institution of the creation Sabbath and in connection with the fourth commandment in Leviticus 23. Your position would necessarily make God a Sabbath law breaker as God applies the Sabbath law OUTSIDE of your restrictive definitions.”
GE:
Re: Dr Walter, “…you must insist that the 7th day Sabbath is restricted to only a 24 hour use of the term "day" and restricted to what the Scriptures NEVER EVER use in either the creation account or the 4th commandment …”
And yes, so is the foggy air slowly subsiding, and is becoming clearer and clearer TO ME AS WELL, just what is awry in this discussion.
See for the umpteenth time Dr Walter misconstruing my statements and standpoints!
See how he uses HIS words and ideas to camouflage his smuggled in falsities into the statements I am making on the basis of the PURE words that are actually, ‘WRITTEN’ IN THE SCRIPTURES.
I before said, it no longer is even funny. I now say, it is scandalous, Dr Walter, for you as a professing Christian, to act so unbecoming your profession!
That, though, is not the ‘point’ I am seeing better focused on as this conversations is progressing ….
I shall therefore extract from the above mutilation what is to the point:
GE …insists that the 7th day Sabbath is restricted to a use of the phrase "in the day The Seventh Day" restricted to what the Scriptures actually DO use in BOTH the creation account AND the 4th commandment.
Note especially DW’s abbreviation, “the 7th day Sabbath”.
It has become clearer and clearer to myself in fact through this very conversation, the ONENESS of the FULL phrase and ideas contained in it, better than I ever before perceived, here, http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1686658&posted=1#post1686658
The Hebrew word for ‘the sabbath’, ‘shabbath’, or the Hebrew words for ‘the sabbath’, “in the day the seventh day”, ‘yom shebii’, are NOT “the restrictive”, NOR are they restricted, in “application to”, the creation Sabbath or, the Fourth Commandment Sabbath.
BUT, in the combining of these words together into, “The Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD-your-God” ever so often WITHOUT EXCEPTION,
they are perfectly conditioned upon the reality of both “the Sabbath” and “The Seventh Day” BEING, LITERALLY “THE DAY, THE, SEVENTH, Day”-OF-THE-WEEK and “SABBATH-OF,-the Lord God”: “The Sabbath” which,
within the seven-day-cycle or "set-of-days" KNOWN by any right-minded person upon earth today, is ‘the last day-OF-THE-WEEK’ (or also in some cultures, is ‘Saturday’).
I am seeing it better and better, but I can’t see how I could improve my explaining of it, EXCEPT by pointing out or by pointing to Dr Walter’s, OWN explanation of the exact SAME element of “truth”, to quote him again,
“The truth is that we simply have a set of seven days, six days preceding the Sabbath and six days following the Sabbath and that set of seven days can fit any calander at any time regardless of the number of days in the month or days in the year.”
I’ll highlight Dr Walter’s, crucial, words,
“The truth is that WE SIMPLY HAVE A SET OF SEVEN DAYS, six days preceding the Sabbath and six days following the Sabbath and THAT SET OF SEVEN DAYS can fit any calander at any time regardless of the number of days in the month or days in the year.”
Fine. Now, Read this from the pen of Dr Walter, also, just very recently,
“…what the Scriptures NEVER EVER use in either the creation account or the 4th commandment and that is the terms "OF THE WEEK."”
I’ll highlight the crucial words, further for you …
“…what the Scriptures NEVER EVER use in either the creation account or the 4th commandment and that is the terms : _"OF-THE-WEEK"_!!!”
For the life of old Eber, I don’t see ANY DIFFERENCE between GE’s ‘insisting’, on the concept implied in “the creation account or the 4th commandment” of: _"OF-THE-WEEK"_!!!, and Dr Walter’s ‘insisting’, on the concept implied in “the creation account or the 4th commandment” of: “_"A SET OF SEVEN DAYS"_!!!”, “_THAT SET OF SEVEN DAYS" “_OF-_”, in the last analysis, “_-THE-WEEK_!!!”
Man, I feel sommer lus and call the thing by its true name, equivocative ambivalence and overstatement-cover-up, under a heap of baloney, improbity and guile!
With compliments as a piece of my mind right now, Dr Walter …
That is what has been the TRUTH that from inside out rotted this conversation so far! I now see it clear as bright daylight!
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Dr Walter’s Hoax
I feel like a sheep the only thing I can carry is my woolly brain.
That’s why I could not uncover his scheming … the trick is too obvious to even suspect! An eye-blinder so slick you never noticed. A camel through the eye of a needle so by my kool (upon my soul). Now I understand why every morning my cabbage garden disappears little by little. That camel!
Dr Walter has re-invented the wheel; now he peddles his patent to the gullible half learned road-show hungry evangelists priced a tithe plus side-kick offering.
For that, all these sesquipedalian ‘debates’ measured by the yawns!
I really feel sheepish!
Therefore, is it worth further consideration?
What else can be said than what has been said?
We shall have to wait and see; I not now feel like digging dead cows from the trenches (beating the dead poor old horse alive all over again).
But I have my sacred duty; like we all do.
The milled nut is it is God’s Word we deal with; or rather, it is God’s Word that deals with us gropers in the darkness. May His Word be the lamp for our feet it is supposed to be.
I feel like a sheep the only thing I can carry is my woolly brain.
That’s why I could not uncover his scheming … the trick is too obvious to even suspect! An eye-blinder so slick you never noticed. A camel through the eye of a needle so by my kool (upon my soul). Now I understand why every morning my cabbage garden disappears little by little. That camel!
Dr Walter has re-invented the wheel; now he peddles his patent to the gullible half learned road-show hungry evangelists priced a tithe plus side-kick offering.
For that, all these sesquipedalian ‘debates’ measured by the yawns!
I really feel sheepish!
Therefore, is it worth further consideration?
What else can be said than what has been said?
We shall have to wait and see; I not now feel like digging dead cows from the trenches (beating the dead poor old horse alive all over again).
But I have my sacred duty; like we all do.
The milled nut is it is God’s Word we deal with; or rather, it is God’s Word that deals with us gropers in the darkness. May His Word be the lamp for our feet it is supposed to be.
After his “set-of-days-theory’ has been debunked, Dr Walter’s dogmatisms must be looked at from another angle than previously attempted. Therefore some few extracts from his lengthy treatises will be reconsidered:
From,
Dr Walter:
“You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day." The Sabbath law is the only grounds/basis for the idea of a "sabbath."
You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the Sabbath law to other periods of time than merely a 24 hour period (month, year).
You have not been able to answer why the Biblical calendar month and year is not divisible by seven but has a "twenty and ninth" day in it. If the "week" is God's basic and essential time measurement then why did He not create the moon, earth and sun orbits and rotations according to that essential time measurement??????? It is obvious from the account of Noah that the first calculations of months and years was strictly lunar with 30 days in the month and 360 days in the year. Just read the account of Noah. This is how God counted months and the year. 30 days is not evenly divisible by seven. 360 days is not evenly disivible by
seven.”
GE:
Considering:
“You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day." The Sabbath law is the only grounds/basis for the idea of a "sabbath."”
“…the fourth commandment permits God…”
GE:
God permits the Fourth Commandment; the Fourth Commandment has no authority over God.
Re:
“…permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days…”
...but in the Fourth Commandment, it is stated “…the Seventh Day…”. In every mention of the Fourth Commandment, it is stated “…the Seventh Day…”. The Fourth Commandment says that God actually “appl(ies) the sabbath law to” “the Seventh Day”, and NOT that God “appl(ies) the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day.".
And so, that
“The Sabbath law is the only grounds/basis for the idea of a "sabbath."”,
is nonsensical because the created reality of a "sabbath-DAY” in the Fourth Commandment — “the DAY the SEVENTH Day” of the creation and creation-ORDER — “is the only grounds/basis for The Sabbath”, as well as for “the sabbath law” of the Fourth Commandment.
The reality of “the Seventh Day” of God’s ‘making’ “is the only grounds/basis for The Sabbath”.
The reality of “the Seventh Day” of God’s ‘making’ “is the only grounds/basis for The Sabbath” and no mere “idea of a "sabbath"”.
Is there any possibility left in which way you, Dr Walter, do not twist and bend God’s Word to fit your scheming?!
Therefore surely, I am “not … able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day."” May I never like you become able to do it!
And therefore yes, again, I “…have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the Sabbath law to other periods of time than merely a 24 hour period (month, year).” Absolutely, yes! Thank God!
So by my answer with reference to the actual facts contained in the creation story and Fourth Commandment, I have been able to answer your faked accusations, and “have … answer(ed) why the Biblical calendar month and year (are) not divisible by seven but ha(ve) a "twenty and ninth" day” and of course every other date of the month, “in it”.
Because, actually, yes, “If the "week" is God's basic and essential time measurement” to determine his Sabbath Day, “then why did He not create the moon, earth and sun orbits and rotations according to that essential time measurement???????” Quite a penetrating question! And the answer to that question must be just as transparent and apparent, that God did not want to!
From,
Dr Walter:
“You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day." The Sabbath law is the only grounds/basis for the idea of a "sabbath."
You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the Sabbath law to other periods of time than merely a 24 hour period (month, year).
You have not been able to answer why the Biblical calendar month and year is not divisible by seven but has a "twenty and ninth" day in it. If the "week" is God's basic and essential time measurement then why did He not create the moon, earth and sun orbits and rotations according to that essential time measurement??????? It is obvious from the account of Noah that the first calculations of months and years was strictly lunar with 30 days in the month and 360 days in the year. Just read the account of Noah. This is how God counted months and the year. 30 days is not evenly divisible by seven. 360 days is not evenly disivible by
seven.”
GE:
Considering:
“You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day." The Sabbath law is the only grounds/basis for the idea of a "sabbath."”
“…the fourth commandment permits God…”
GE:
God permits the Fourth Commandment; the Fourth Commandment has no authority over God.
Re:
“…permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days…”
...but in the Fourth Commandment, it is stated “…the Seventh Day…”. In every mention of the Fourth Commandment, it is stated “…the Seventh Day…”. The Fourth Commandment says that God actually “appl(ies) the sabbath law to” “the Seventh Day”, and NOT that God “appl(ies) the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day.".
And so, that
“The Sabbath law is the only grounds/basis for the idea of a "sabbath."”,
is nonsensical because the created reality of a "sabbath-DAY” in the Fourth Commandment — “the DAY the SEVENTH Day” of the creation and creation-ORDER — “is the only grounds/basis for The Sabbath”, as well as for “the sabbath law” of the Fourth Commandment.
The reality of “the Seventh Day” of God’s ‘making’ “is the only grounds/basis for The Sabbath”.
The reality of “the Seventh Day” of God’s ‘making’ “is the only grounds/basis for The Sabbath” and no mere “idea of a "sabbath"”.
Is there any possibility left in which way you, Dr Walter, do not twist and bend God’s Word to fit your scheming?!
Therefore surely, I am “not … able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day."” May I never like you become able to do it!
And therefore yes, again, I “…have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the Sabbath law to other periods of time than merely a 24 hour period (month, year).” Absolutely, yes! Thank God!
So by my answer with reference to the actual facts contained in the creation story and Fourth Commandment, I have been able to answer your faked accusations, and “have … answer(ed) why the Biblical calendar month and year (are) not divisible by seven but ha(ve) a "twenty and ninth" day” and of course every other date of the month, “in it”.
Because, actually, yes, “If the "week" is God's basic and essential time measurement” to determine his Sabbath Day, “then why did He not create the moon, earth and sun orbits and rotations according to that essential time measurement???????” Quite a penetrating question! And the answer to that question must be just as transparent and apparent, that God did not want to!
Dr. Walter
New Member
If you spend less time making personal attacks upon my person and deal with the objections that I have placed before you we would get further along in this discussion.
The Seventh day is the Seventh day in a set of seven days - -period. It is not the seventh day "of the week." You have jumped from principle to tradition when you add to God's Word "of the week."
As I have stated many times previously, there is nothing wrong in applying the Sabbath law principle of the Seventh day in a set of seven days to the Seventh day "of the week" but it is wrong to RESTRICT it to such when God Himself does not restrict it to the seventh day "of the week."
Again such a TRADITIONAL RESTRICTION violates not merely God's own application of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH in regard to a set of seven days but God did not create the very things He says are for "times and seasons" to fit the "week" mode of counting time as the very things created for "times and seasons" are 29-30 day months rather than 28 day months.
Gen. 1:14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Hence, the use of the terms "seventh day" have to do with the set of seven days in creation not to the tradition of "the week." The Sabbath law has to do with this principle of six working days FOLLOWED and PRECEDED by a Sabbath. The principle or set of seven days concluding/beginning with a Sabbath can fit ANY CALENDAR regardless if the tradition is an eight day division, ten day division, etc. It can fit a 28 day calendar, 29, 30, 31, 10 day, etc. The tradition of a seven day "week" is not essential to the Sabbath law as the set of seven days is not dependent upon any human/tradition calendar divisions. God's own calendar in Leviticus 23 is not established upon a seven day "week" division but rather upon a 29-30 day lunar division according to God's design for the moon and sun in Genesis 1:14.
Simply put, YOU are adding to God's word the terms "of the week" and YOU are restricting the sabbath to the "seventh day of the week" when God's Word does not make such a restriction although God's Word by principle allows for such an application. The application is fine but the restriction is not! Why? Because God's Word, and thus God Himself does not keep it within that restrictive use.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
God created everything within six days and rested on the seventh day - this is a set of seven days without any names for any day. There is no monday, Tuesday, etc. division in God's Word - nowhere.
There is no mention of the seventh day "of the week" in Genesis, Exodus or Deuternonomy or any other reference for the fourth commandment.
Why? Because creation days are set forth as a set of seven days that can fit any calander anywhere in the world at any time in history. Hence, the "seventh day" Sabbath can fall upon any day in any calendar at any time and history.
The principle is very simple. Six days both precede and follow the Sabbath day. Nowhere does God demand what day "OF THE WEEK" according to human calendars must this set of seven days begin - nowhere! The Egyptians can start it on their Saturday with the Seventh day Sabbath falling on their Friday (which they did). The Jews can start it on the seventh day "of the month" without any reference to NAMES given to particular days "of the month (which they did in Leviticus 23).
The fourth command does not prescribe any NAMED day "of the week" upon which this set of seven days must begin or end.
Can it begin upon Sunday and end upon Saturday? Certainly, nothing wrong with that and that is the tradition of the Jews. Can the Bible be used to restrict it to the Jewish tradition? No! It is simply a set of seven days where the seventh day both concludes as well as precedes six working days. Thus the Seventh day Sabbath may act as the end as well as the beginning of the six work day cycle, it may conclude as well as introduce the six day cycle. Hence, the principle is six working days followed and preceded by the Sabbath day.
Can it be permenantly fixed by God to a certain day "of the week"? Under the New Covenant types and New Covenant application it is fixed by God to the "first day of the week" (Lev. 23; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Mk. 16:9; Rev. 1:7).
Our dear brother DKH complains that he works on Sundays? May I ask what KIND OF WORK? Does he really believe the Bible forbids all kinds of work on the Sabbath? Jesus explicitly states that the Sabbath is given to the work of God, the work of the ministry, the work in the house of God but is a "rest" from the kind of work that is all about self interests (Isa. 58:13). This kind of work Jesus says that God continues to do upon the Sabbath and so does Jesus. Jesus says it is LAWFUL to do this kind of work on the Sabbath. Hence, does DKH think that doing the LORD'S WORK on the Sabbath violates the Sabbath "rest"????????
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Mt 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Isa. 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Note that Isaiah 58:13 defines the kind of works forbidden upon the Sabbath and provides the spirit or principle of the Sabbath. The principle of the Sabbath is not completely fulfilled until we are glorified in a body without sin within a new creation without sin - that is the ultimate conclusion of Sabbath fulfillment. We now enter this principle initially by faith when we believe the Gospel and we now obtain complete fulfillment POSITIONALLY "in Christ" but we do not have the PERFECT and COMPLETE application until we are glorified in a new heaven and earth when God can once again look upon everything He has created and made and say "very good."
There is no mention of the seventh day "of the week" in Genesis, Exodus or Deuternonomy or any other reference for the fourth commandment.
Why? Because creation days are set forth as a set of seven days that can fit any calander anywhere in the world at any time in history. Hence, the "seventh day" Sabbath can fall upon any day in any calendar at any time and history.
The principle is very simple. Six days both precede and follow the Sabbath day. Nowhere does God demand what day "OF THE WEEK" according to human calendars must this set of seven days begin - nowhere! The Egyptians can start it on their Saturday with the Seventh day Sabbath falling on their Friday (which they did). The Jews can start it on the seventh day "of the month" without any reference to NAMES given to particular days "of the month (which they did in Leviticus 23).
The fourth command does not prescribe any NAMED day "of the week" upon which this set of seven days must begin or end.
Can it begin upon Sunday and end upon Saturday? Certainly, nothing wrong with that and that is the tradition of the Jews. Can the Bible be used to restrict it to the Jewish tradition? No! It is simply a set of seven days where the seventh day both concludes as well as precedes six working days. Thus the Seventh day Sabbath may act as the end as well as the beginning of the six work day cycle, it may conclude as well as introduce the six day cycle. Hence, the principle is six working days followed and preceded by the Sabbath day.
Can it be permenantly fixed by God to a certain day "of the week"? Under the New Covenant types and New Covenant application it is fixed by God to the "first day of the week" (Lev. 23; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Mk. 16:9; Rev. 1:7).
Our dear brother DKH complains that he works on Sundays? May I ask what KIND OF WORK? Does he really believe the Bible forbids all kinds of work on the Sabbath? Jesus explicitly states that the Sabbath is given to the work of God, the work of the ministry, the work in the house of God but is a "rest" from the kind of work that is all about self interests (Isa. 58:13). This kind of work Jesus says that God continues to do upon the Sabbath and so does Jesus. Jesus says it is LAWFUL to do this kind of work on the Sabbath. Hence, does DKH think that doing the LORD'S WORK on the Sabbath violates the Sabbath "rest"????????
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Mt 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Isa. 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Note that Isaiah 58:13 defines the kind of works forbidden upon the Sabbath and provides the spirit or principle of the Sabbath. The principle of the Sabbath is not completely fulfilled until we are glorified in a body without sin within a new creation without sin - that is the ultimate conclusion of Sabbath fulfillment. We now enter this principle initially by faith when we believe the Gospel and we now obtain complete fulfillment POSITIONALLY "in Christ" but we do not have the PERFECT and COMPLETE application until we are glorified in a new heaven and earth when God can once again look upon everything He has created and made and say "very good."
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Dr Walter accumulated an array of descriptions for the Scriptures’, ‘week’, but which Dr Walter claims, isn’t the week, but “a set of seven days”.
One of his descriptions is “The Sabbath "sanctified" or SEPARATED from the rest of the previous six days”. Just don’t say “The Sabbath "sanctified" or separated from the rest of the previous six days” : OF THE WEEK!
Note Dr Walter’s false emphasis on the word “SEPARATED” as if to replace the IMPLICATION THE FACT, “The Sabbath "sanctified" or separated from the rest of the previous six days…” : OF THE WEEK namely of the ‘creation-week’ of SEVEN, ‘days’!
Dr Walter’s “God applies the Sabbath law to a variety of other days "of the week"”, is a most obvious insidious untruth which jests at “the Sabbath law” which God NEVER “applies to a variety of other days” OTHER than “the Sabbath” : “The Seventh Day” of the seven days spoken of in the ‘Law’ and Fourth Commandment in Exodus 20, as well as in the world’s creation in Genesis 2.
“The Sabbath law” strictly and without exception EVER, in the Bible occurs “CONCERNING” “the Day”, “God IN THE SCRIPTURES _THUS SPAKE_ : and God THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works, rested” Hebrews 4:4. Which is the END, the DEMOLISHMENT, and the EXPOSURE of Dr Walter in his DECEIT that “the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day"”!
For DECEIT is Dr Walter’s WHOLE, and ONLY aim and purpose and TRUST is deceit’s ONLY trust! Yes, trust in the deceiver is the only thing his deceit demands.
“The Seventh Day” is “The Seventh Day-OF” that “set of seven days” “–OF” that GROUP “of seven days” “The Seventh Day” is the last and “Seventh Day” "-OF". Simple! Bare fact! Because TRUTH is, God applies the Sabbath “LAW”, to NO “other days” than “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”. Dr Walter’s statement is an outright lie and mis-‘application’ of the Scriptures and ‘principle’ of truth and God’s ‘Law’.
Dr Walter always mixes and confuses and so identifies the Sabbath LAW and the Sabbath— the Sabbath as such the Seventh Day of the week of the Sabbath Law. He talks of the Sabbath AS SUCH as the “law” or “commandment” and not as the commanded thing. Then again he talks of the “law” per se, as the commanded thing THE Sabbath Day. And God, he portrays as not knowing what He is doing or speaking and always is confusing his Sabbath Day for his Law of the Sabbath Day; and his Law of the Sabbath Day for his Sabbath Day.
And although it seems Dr Walter is able to confuse even God Himself, I don’t believe he is so confused as he pretends to be. I think he is systematically and strategically set on confusing his readers so they may accept his confusion for order and truth.
What Dr Walter actually wrote means any one day of the first six days of the creation-week “separated” from any five of the first six days of the creation week— Dr Walter’s way to prove it wasn’t the Seventh-Day-Sabbath following the first six days of the creation-WEEK, “separated” and “sanctified”.
It’s Dr Walter’s ‘logical logic’, which I definitely “do not understand” but can explain to him better than he can explain it to anyone else himself. No wonder Dr Walter cannot get to the real thing, ‘the week’ of SEVEN, and not of “the previous six days”-OF-THE-WEEK!
Says DW in the hope to avoid the origin of the ‘week’ or first ever “set of seven days where six days preceded a Sabbath and six days followed a Sabbath”.
“…a Sabbath…” with a capital letter, but with the indefinite article!
Clever confusing!
The word “Sabbath” with capital letter, one would expect, represents THE Sabbath, “The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath”, whereas the word ‘sabbath’ with no capital letter, would suggest “a”, ‘sabbath’ – any ‘sabbath’ OTHER, than “The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD”.
In this way instead of the “set of seven days” known as the ‘week’ where six days precede THE Sabbath and six days follow “THE Sabbath-The-Day-The-Seventh-Day”-of-the-WEEK, Dr Walter wangles to get “a set of seven days” NOT THE WEEK, “where six days preceded a (s)abbath and six days followed a (s)abbath”.
Shrewd; but not shrewd enough!
Because it is NOT NOT NOT THIS, ‘principle’, THE, ‘principle’ “where six days preceded a Sabbath”— “The SEVENTH Day-of-the-week-Sabbath”— “and six days followed a Sabbath”— “The SEVENTH Day-of-the-week-Sabbath”— that underlies Leviticus 23:11,15 where it is prescribed to ‘count’ “seven” “sabbaths”, “where six days preceded a (s)abbath and six days followed a (s)abbath” before the next “sabbath”, “seven times”, before “the next” and ‘Fiftieth’, “day” after the last “sabbath” OF SEVEN DAYS IRRESPECTIVE THE ‘WEEK’ AND “where six days preceded a (s)abbath and six days followed a (s)abbath”.
Exactly the OPPOSITE of what Dr Walter, said and directly contradicting and refuting him!
Yes, THOSE ‘weeks-of-sabbaths’ in Leviticus 23:11,15, were NOT “The Sabbaths” –‘OF the week’ which the Commandment’s literal definition for, is, “IN-THE-DAY-THE-Seventh-Day-Sabbath”.
“The-day-The-Sabbath” of ‘the week’ in and of the Commandment and creation story, was and still is and forever will be the last and “The Seventh Day” “-IN”, and the last and “The Seventh Day” “-OF” : -THE WEEK!
The fact both these kinds of ‘sabbaths’ are called ‘sabbaths’
does not identify them;
it does not even make them similar;
it does not make of them both the “application” of the Fourth Commandment;
it does not make them co-incidental or simultaneous with one another;
it does not say or imply they required the same ‘observance’ or ‘holiness’ or had the same typological meaning.
The fact both these kinds of ‘sabbaths’ are called ‘sabbaths’ does not say they in space and time originated from the same source;
because “The Day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”-of-each-and-every-week-FOREVER, was once for all determined by the pure will of God out of pure grace;
while “the sabbaths”-OF MONTHS’ DATES on YEARLY calendars, God COMMANDED must be determined and proclaimed, quote: “sabbaths : according to their SEASONS” of nature as “ruled” by the heavenly bodies to the laws of physics out of no grace or love.
How many times did Dr Walter admit this differentiation only to completely ignore and deny it again soon after?!
It’s Dr Walter’s ‘logical logic’, which I definitely “do not understand” but can explain to him better than he can explain it to anyone else himself. No wonder Dr Walter cannot get to the real thing, ‘the week’ of SEVEN, and not of “the previous six days”-OF-THE-WEEK!
Says DW in the hope to avoid the origin of the ‘week’ or first ever “set of seven days where six days preceded a Sabbath and six days followed a Sabbath”.
“…a Sabbath…” with a capital letter, but with the indefinite article!
Clever confusing!
The word “Sabbath” with capital letter, one would expect, represents THE Sabbath, “The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath”, whereas the word ‘sabbath’ with no capital letter, would suggest “a”, ‘sabbath’ – any ‘sabbath’ OTHER, than “The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD”.
In this way instead of the “set of seven days” known as the ‘week’ where six days precede THE Sabbath and six days follow “THE Sabbath-The-Day-The-Seventh-Day”-of-the-WEEK, Dr Walter wangles to get “a set of seven days” NOT THE WEEK, “where six days preceded a (s)abbath and six days followed a (s)abbath”.
Shrewd; but not shrewd enough!
Because it is NOT NOT NOT THIS, ‘principle’, THE, ‘principle’ “where six days preceded a Sabbath”— “The SEVENTH Day-of-the-week-Sabbath”— “and six days followed a Sabbath”— “The SEVENTH Day-of-the-week-Sabbath”— that underlies Leviticus 23:11,15 where it is prescribed to ‘count’ “seven” “sabbaths”, “where six days preceded a (s)abbath and six days followed a (s)abbath” before the next “sabbath”, “seven times”, before “the next” and ‘Fiftieth’, “day” after the last “sabbath” OF SEVEN DAYS IRRESPECTIVE THE ‘WEEK’ AND “where six days preceded a (s)abbath and six days followed a (s)abbath”.
Exactly the OPPOSITE of what Dr Walter, said and directly contradicting and refuting him!
Yes, THOSE ‘weeks-of-sabbaths’ in Leviticus 23:11,15, were NOT “The Sabbaths” –‘OF the week’ which the Commandment’s literal definition for, is, “IN-THE-DAY-THE-Seventh-Day-Sabbath”.
“The-day-The-Sabbath” of ‘the week’ in and of the Commandment and creation story, was and still is and forever will be the last and “The Seventh Day” “-IN”, and the last and “The Seventh Day” “-OF” : -THE WEEK!
The fact both these kinds of ‘sabbaths’ are called ‘sabbaths’
does not identify them;
it does not even make them similar;
it does not make of them both the “application” of the Fourth Commandment;
it does not make them co-incidental or simultaneous with one another;
it does not say or imply they required the same ‘observance’ or ‘holiness’ or had the same typological meaning.
The fact both these kinds of ‘sabbaths’ are called ‘sabbaths’ does not say they in space and time originated from the same source;
because “The Day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”-of-each-and-every-week-FOREVER, was once for all determined by the pure will of God out of pure grace;
while “the sabbaths”-OF MONTHS’ DATES on YEARLY calendars, God COMMANDED must be determined and proclaimed, quote: “sabbaths : according to their SEASONS” of nature as “ruled” by the heavenly bodies to the laws of physics out of no grace or love.
How many times did Dr Walter admit this differentiation only to completely ignore and deny it again soon after?!
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Why not simply be honest with the text? Honest demands that "of the week" cannot be found at all anywhere in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment! Nada, zilch, zippo!
Furthermore, "a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account precedes the calendar division "of the week." No calendar existed in Genesis 1-2 and the first method of computing months and years does not evenly divide into the "week" ideology but rather 30 day months and 360 day years.
Last, I am setting forth the principle when I say "a set of seven days" rather than quoting word for word from Genesis 2:3-4. There are seven days accounted for and the seventh day in this set of seven days is the Sabbath. However, placing this set of seven days in the Jewish or Julian calendar computations is something quite different. Defining the seventh day of the Egyptian Calendar and this seventh day is something quite different.
You are attempting FIX the "seventh day" in the creation account to a PARTICULAR post-creation type of calendar that does not permit the Seventh day to fall upon any other day in that calendar other than Saturday and that attempt has absolutely no Biblical foundation whatsoever.
GE:
Re:
DW:
"... "of the week" cannot be found at all anywhere in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment! Nada, zilch, zippo!"
GE:
Why?! Did you expect English in the Hebrew "creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment"?
There are as many as there are English words and expressions and idioms in the KJV e.g., that you won't find in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment in the Hebrew! Nada, zilch, zippo!
"The set of seven days", "the principle of seven day" etc. etc. whatever you could come forward with, cannot be found at all anywhere in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment! Nada, zilch, zippo!
Re:
DW:
"Furthermore, "a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account precedes the calendar division "of the week.""
GE:
WHERE?
""a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account", "cannot be found at all anywhere in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment! Nada, zilch, zippo!"
And WHERE does ""a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account precede the calendar division "of the week"" ?
And HOW does ""a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account precede the calendar division "of the week"" WITHOUT BEING MENTIONED?
There is NO such thing "with reference to the Creation account" as the week of the set of seven days with reference to the Creation account that "precede(s) the calendar division "of the week"".
How do you call it "a division "of the week"" which YOU have all along and just now, DENIED, exists "with reference to the Creation account"?
The "division "of the week"" of "a set of seven days" IN ANY CASE, IS, NO, "calendar division"!
The seven days of and "in the creation" -WEEK, were the first seven days CREATED AND THUS NAMED ONE BY ONE through the creation work of God that CANNOT be 'referenced to' anything in the world that then OR AFTER had not even been CREATED! Like you say yourself, not realizing that you contradict YOURSELF, "No calendar existed in Genesis 1-2"!
Re:
DW:
"... and the first method of computing months and years does not evenly divide into the "week" ideology but rather 30 day months and 360 day years."
GE:
Yes, can it be clearer?
Then why do you call it "the "week" ideology" and don't ACKNOWLEDGE it for THE WEEK-REALITY it was and EVER SINCE the creation had CONTINUED to be?
Re:
DW:
"Last, I am setting forth the principle when I say "a set of seven days" rather than quoting word for word from Genesis 2:3-4."
GE:
The very same thing all Englishmen except you - it seems -, do, when they are setting forth the principle when they say 'the week and or set of seven days', rather than quoting word for word from Genesis 2:3-4! Unambiguously, CLEAR!
Re:
DW:
"There are seven days accounted for and the seventh day in this set of seven days is the Sabbath."
GE:
Praise God for it, by worshiping God on it!
Re:
DW:
"However, placing this set of seven days in the Jewish or Julian calendar computations is something quite different."
GE:
Sure! Who said different? N
NE! Re:
DW:
"Defining the seventh day of the Egyptian Calendar and this seventh day is something quite different."
GE:
Now I must be honest and say I don't understand what you're talking; OR, that YOU, understand what YOU'RE talking!
Re:
DW:
"You are attempting FIX the "seventh day" in the creation account to a PARTICULAR post-creation type of calendar ..."
GE:
No! That's what Dr Walter says I am doing; not what I am doing or am trying to do or say or even suppose I am attempting. Nonsense!
Re:
DW:
“You are attempting FIX the "seventh day" in the creation account to a PARTICULAR post-creation type of calendar that does not permit the Seventh day to fall upon any other day in that calendar other than Saturday and that attempt has absolutely no Biblical foundation whatsoever.”
GE:
No, again!
It is you, Dr Walter, who are confused, and confuse the FIXED "Seventh Day" IN THE CREATION ACCOUNT, for “a PARTICULAR post-creation type of calendar” –day; and REFUSE to admit “The Seventh Day” IN AND OF THE CREATION WEEK’S account in Genesis and the Fourth Commandment in Exodus 20, ALWAYS – ‘fixed’ – falls upon N
THER day than “The-Day-The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD”. INCIDENTALLY the heathen pagans have a day parallel in sequence with the Seventh Day of and in the creation-week's account in the Bible, known by them as ‘the Day-of-Saturn’ and CONFUSED by Christians for the Sabbath Day, as can be seen in Justin’s corruption of the Scriptures in Matthew 28:1.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
GE:
Re:
DW:
"... "of the week" cannot be found at all anywhere in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment! Nada, zilch, zippo!"
GE:
Why?! Did you expect English in the Hebrew "creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment"?
There are as many as there are English words and expressions and idioms in the KJV e.g., that you won't find in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment in the Hebrew! Nada, zilch, zippo!
"The set of seven days", "the principle of seven day" etc. etc. whatever you could come forward with, cannot be found at all anywhere in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment! Nada, zilch, zippo!
Re:
DW:
"Furthermore, "a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account precedes the calendar division "of the week.""
GE:
WHERE?
""a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account", "cannot be found at all anywhere in the creation account or in any account of the fourth commandment! Nada, zilch, zippo!"
And WHERE does ""a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account precede the calendar division "of the week"" ?
And HOW does ""a set of seven days" with reference to the Creation account precede the calendar division "of the week"" WITHOUT BEING MENTIONED?
There is NO such thing "with reference to the Creation account" as the week of the set of seven days with reference to the Creation account that "precede(s) the calendar division "of the week"".
How do you call it "a division "of the week"" which YOU have all along and just now, DENIED, exists "with reference to the Creation account"?
The "division "of the week"" of "a set of seven days" IN ANY CASE, IS, NO, "calendar division"!
The seven days of and "in the creation" -WEEK, were the first seven days CREATED AND THUS NAMED ONE BY ONE through the creation work of God that CANNOT be 'referenced to' anything in the world that then OR AFTER had not even been CREATED! Like you say yourself, not realizing that you contradict YOURSELF, "No calendar existed in Genesis 1-2"!
Re:
DW:
"... and the first method of computing months and years does not evenly divide into the "week" ideology but rather 30 day months and 360 day years."
GE:
Yes, can it be clearer?
Then why do you call it "the "week" ideology" and don't ACKNOWLEDGE it for THE WEEK-REALITY it was and EVER SINCE the creation had CONTINUED to be?
Re:
DW:
"Last, I am setting forth the principle when I say "a set of seven days" rather than quoting word for word from Genesis 2:3-4."
GE:
The very same thing all Englishmen except you - it seems -, do, when they are setting forth the principle when they say 'the week and or set of seven days', rather than quoting word for word from Genesis 2:3-4! Unambiguously, CLEAR!
Re:
DW:
"There are seven days accounted for and the seventh day in this set of seven days is the Sabbath."
GE:
Praise God for it, by worshiping God on it!
Re:
DW:
"However, placing this set of seven days in the Jewish or Julian calendar computations is something quite different."
GE:
Sure! Who said different? N
Re:
DW:
"Defining the seventh day of the Egyptian Calendar and this seventh day is something quite different."
GE:
Now I must be honest and say I don't understand what you're talking; OR, that YOU, understand what YOU'RE talking!
Re:
DW:
"You are attempting FIX the "seventh day" in the creation account to a PARTICULAR post-creation type of calendar ..."
GE:
No! That's what Dr Walter says I am doing; not what I am doing or am trying to do or say or even suppose I am attempting. Nonsense!
Re:
DW:
“You are attempting FIX the "seventh day" in the creation account to a PARTICULAR post-creation type of calendar that does not permit the Seventh day to fall upon any other day in that calendar other than Saturday and that attempt has absolutely no Biblical foundation whatsoever.”
GE:
No, again!
It is you, Dr Walter, who are confused, and confuse the FIXED "Seventh Day" IN THE CREATION ACCOUNT, for “a PARTICULAR post-creation type of calendar” –day; and REFUSE to admit “The Seventh Day” IN AND OF THE CREATION WEEK’S account in Genesis and the Fourth Commandment in Exodus 20, ALWAYS – ‘fixed’ – falls upon N
INCIDENTALLY the heathen pagans have a day parallel in sequence with the Seventh Day of and in the creation-week's account in the Bible, known by them as ‘the Day-of-Saturn’ and CONFUSED by Christians for the Sabbath Day, as can be seen in Justin’s corruption of the Scriptures in Matthew 28:1.
Since you admit that the Seventh day Sabbath is not Saturday in any human calendar nor has to fall on Saturday in human calendar but is merely the Seventh day following six work days then what is your beef with me as that is exactly my position!
My position is that "first day of the week" in the New Testament record is that Sabbath day preceded by six working days and thus is the "seventh" day Sabbath in keeping with six preceding working days EXCEPT now it is FIXED upon Sunday by the resurrection rather than on some unknown NAMED day "of the week" in human calendars prior to the resurrection.
Remember the seventh month was at the very same time the first month according to two different Jewish calendars (Civil versus religious). Hence, the "first day of the week" sabbath is also the "seventh day" sabbath as it follows six working days.
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