Is Joel 2 A Double...?

I think there's a big gap between 29 and 30. It's like when Jesus quoted Isaiah. Notice that he stopped mid-sentence, right after "favor". That's because the very next part (in bold) was not yet fulfilled. It will be fulfilled at His return, the Day of the Lord's wrath.

 

Yeah, but I don't think Peter meant that it was all being fulfilled right then. There weren't blood and fire and billows of smoke, and the sun didn't go dark and moon turn to blood at that time in Acts, right? I really think he was just quoting the whole passage. I could certainly be wrong, but I'm convinced that there's a big time gap between 29 and 30. The signs given in 30 onward belong to the Day of the Lord, which is a future event.

 

We are to take it literally unless the passage contends for a different rendering. We do not take it allegorically first and then look for truths along the way. This is the position of how Preterists/partial Preterists (depending on their view of the Mil) interpret scripture. It is the genernal difference between Amill (full pret) Postmils (partials) and us Premills (yet to be fulfilled). I might be wrong, but I think that is correct.

The phrase simply implies it is a specific or purposed Day in which God will concumate His planned wrath. However, in the main it is about (though at times is paralelled) to that Last Great Day. Therefore we are take the Day of the Lord in the context of the passage it was written in while keeping in mind what it represents (the Great Day of the Lord).

 

It's an excuse for ignoring the literal interpretation of something.

There are just too many references to the Day of the Lord being preceded by the same signs for me to write it off as symbolic. The Bible says, again and again, that the sun will go dark and the moon will turn to the color of blood, and these things will be accompanied by some dramatic celestial event (described as the stars falling from heaven, the sky receding like a scroll, etc.). These signs always precede the return of the Lord and the Day of the Lord's wrath/vengeance.

When will this happen? Look at Matthew 24:

It happens immediately after the great tribulation (the distress of those days, which refers back to Matthew 15+). And, if you want to know when the rapture occurs, it occurs at that same time (the Day of the Lord), as shown by verse 31.

Here's the mistake most people make in order to dispute this conclusion and go for pre-trib instead. They conclude that if the rapture occurs after the great tribulation, we will know when it occurs and it won't be a surprise, since the great tribulation must last 3 1/2 years after the man of sin is revealed. What they fail to note is what Jesus said in verse 22.

The great tribulation is cut short. He does not say how much it is cut short, just that it is cut short. Therefore we can NOT know the day and hour of His return. We only know that, after the man of sin is revealed, it will be "real soon now".

 

Yes, I believe there is and yet will be a double fulfillment of this passage in Joel (which demonstrates too that there are TWO folds or "dispensations" of "sheep"). The last and COMPLETE will be on this wise (IMO): Russia are the locusts Joel saw attacking from the north (re: "northern armies" 2:20; also see Ezek 38-39 and Dan 11:40).

But Israel has a "head's up" and calls a fast at the temple (we're seeing midtrib here). God does answer their prayers and destroy Russia/"king of the north"/"Gog" with His own hands (I surmise at this time it will be a "Tunguska-like" meteor event).

Those in Jerusalem will rejoice (144,000 may actually see Christ as Messiah at that time). Joel 2:30 will be subsequent. T0 me, these are the 3 first trumpets which together are nuclear war (as "pillars of smoke" indicate) between EU, Russia, and USA (Also see Ezek 39:6 [Russia], Rev 18:8 [USA], and Rev 17:16 [EU] in the latter of which AC is "slain" - not). In the 5th trump, the demon from the pit emerges from there to indwell him.

You can see these things happening in pretty quick succession then. So look at the locusts in Joel 2 as tanks and helicopters I would say -- a land assault on Israel and their destruction between the seas in northern Israel.

As to pretrib view --- DOTL only happens when Israel is being dealt with. The church is never promised or warned it will suffer DOTL wrath. But that IS dispensationalist thinking. All who see no difference will likely be postrib. What postribbers see as rapture is really just the resurrection of the OT and trib saints.

As to the "cut short" nuance: The 6 vials allow Israel to go back to Jerusalem and cleanse the temple 1150 days (of 1260 that remain) after the AoDesolation. That is why there is a final assault on Jerusalem --- that is what Dan 8:12-14 speaks about. (This was NOT fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes within the literal 1150 days nor 2300 days (which 2300 actually refers to 2 per day sacrifices or 1150 days).

skypair

 

Bingo! If one spends anytime in the OT they will see how these phrases are used:

Isaiah describesw the fall of babylon at the hands of the Medes:

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Look how it is described:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Notice John Gill's comments:

Isa 13:10 - For the stars of heaven,.... This and what follows are to be understood, not literally, but figuratively, as expressive of the dismalness and gloominess of the dispensation, of the horror and terror of it, in which there was no light, no comfort, no relief, nor any hope of any; the heavens and all the celestial bodies frowning upon them, declaring the displeasure of him that dwells there:

The judgement on Egypt is described in similar fashion:

Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Again Gill:

I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light; all which figures are sometimes made use of to denote the dissolution of kingdoms and states: the "heaven" being an emblem of a kingdom itself; the "sun" of an emperor or king, or kingly power; the "moon" of the queen, or of the priesthood; the "stars" of nobles, princes, counsellors, and such like eminent persons, useful in government; who being destroyed or removed, the light and glory, the prosperity and happiness of a kingdom, are gone;

So the question becomes, why when we come to Matt 24:29 do we insist Jesus means it in a different way than how the Prophets of the OT used it?

Mat 24:29 -

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

John Lightfoot understood:

The sun shall be darkened, etc.] that is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both.

Albert Barnes understood:

Shall the sun be darkened ... - The images used here are not to be taken literally. They are often employed by the sacred writers to denote "any great calamities." As the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars, would be an inexpressible calamity, so any great catastrophe - any overturning of kingdoms or cities, or dethroning of kings and princes is represented by the darkening of the sun and moon, and by some terrible convulsion in the elements. Thus the destruction of Babylon is foretold in similar terms Isa_13:10, and of Tyre Isa_24:23. The slaughter in Bozrah and Idumea is predicted in the same language, Isa_34:4. See also Isa_50:3; Isa_60:19-20; Eze_32:7; Joe_3:15.

The burden of proof is on the futurist who insist this must be taken in a "literal" sense. A little education in hermeneutics led me out of dispy land.

Funny, those who insist on a "literal" interpretation ignore Peter's words:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Peter didn't say "this is like that" or "part of this is like that", he said "this is that". How do "literalist" get around this?

 

Yeah, so what's new? :laugh: Implements of war = implements of war. I'm almost positive Joel knew what tanks and helicopters looked like, aren't you?


Only problem with #4 is that there are no "pillars of smoke." So it was NOT fulfilled. #3 is my choice. But after all that explanation, I can't believe you would take the article over investigating the passages I gave. I thought you wanted to learn about future events(??).


skypair

 

Obviously, everyone has a different take on the signs sun=dark, moon=blood, stars fall, etc. I suggest you do a study on these signs and see how consistently they are associated with the Day of the Lord's wrath. It has been years since I did this study, but I believe all but one or two references is crystal clear.

 

npetrely --- there are about 4 times in the tribulation where these signs will be manifested.

1) 6th seal (Rev 6:12)

2) 4th trumpet (8:12)

3) 5th vial (16:10)

4) Christ's return (which follows the 7th plagues in Rev 16:17-21)

Do you really only see one such event? See, "signs in the heavens" are also AC's forte.

skypair

 

Your response has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm talking about. Which tells me that it's really you, skypair, and not some imposter.

 

You mean like the "day of the Lord associated with the destruction of Babylon?

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Then described in the next verse as such:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Or "the day of the Lord" dealing with Idumea:

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

And this "day of the Lord" was described this way:

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

 

Yes, actually. Both point to the same future event.

Last time I checked, Babylon is still inhabited.

Last time I checked, people are still passing through it.