Is Lordship Salvation (LS) A Logical...?

[TCGreek]

1. Is Lordship Salvation (LS) a logical outworking of Calvinism?

2. AQ seems to think that LS is dependent on the Perseverance of the saints:

Yes, the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance is the primary source for the development of LS. The same conclusions incorporated into P are applied in LS.

3. Of all the places to begin to show a link between LS and Calvinism, I find this one to be rather strange.

4. "The same conclusions incorporated into P are applied in LS." If this is the case, then every Baptist who believes in the biblical doctrine of OSAS, should espouse LS. But this is not the case. What happened Q?

5. I find your premise to be rather weak.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

1. Is Lordship Salvation (LS) a logical outworking of Calvinism?

2. AQ seems to think that LS is dependent on the Perseverance of the saints:



3. Of all the places to begin to show a link between LS and Calvinism, I find this one to be rather strange.

4. "The same conclusions incorporated into P are applied in LS." If this is the case, then every Baptist who believes in the biblical doctrine of OSAS, should espouse LS. But this is not the case. What happened Q?

5. I find your premise to be rather weak.

Well let me take up the challenge and see if my initial response has some weight. Frankly I summoned the response rather casually and quickly so if it lacks weight, then let that be a lesson learned for me to be more thorough in answering such significant matters.

On the other hand, if through discovery I reveal the validity of the strong connection, then the thumbs up will be in order (and do not fret, if no one gives me the thumbs up it has been resentfully pointed out that I am all too happy to reward myself with such iconic platitudes :laugh: ). Give me the next 24 hours to work on it. My lovely and I have dinner and a movie this evening and tomorrow after worship I am sure I can invest more time.

In the mean time, while I still have a few minutes, I will begin processing some thoughts and engage in some discovery to see if my theological instinct was reasonably on target.

 

[TCGreek]

Enjoy your time with your significant other and looking forward to your well-reasoned response.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Ejoy your time with your significant other and looking forward to your well-reasoned response.

Well, from John MacArthur (Perseverance) the following is stated:

No doctrine has been more savaged by the system of theology that advocates merely intellectual faith as the condition of salvation,because the doctrine of perseverance is antithetical to the entire system that is so oriented. In fact, what proponents of this system have pejoratively labeled "lordship salvation" is nothing other than the doctrine of perseverance!

John MacArthur, the most significant proponent of LS (he calls it a pejorative description) equates it to the doctrine of perseverance. I'd say that this recognition, coming from his own lips and connecting how he teaches the gospel to be "nothing other than the doctrine of perseverance" is rather weighty regarding the connection between the two.

That flatly contradicts the notion entertained by some who teach that faith can evaporate, leaving "believers" who no longer believe. It opposes the radical easy-believism teaching that genuine Christians can choose to "drop out" of the spiritual growth process and "cease to confess Christianity." It is the polar opposite of the brand of theology that makes faith a "historic moment," a one-time "act" that secures heaven, but offers no guarantee the "believer's" earthly life will be changed.

But to be sure, MacArthur refers in direct contrast in this treatment of perseverance, to that which is antithetical to his position; that being what he labels "radical easy-believism".

Thanks John and hey I still have half an hour before the movie!

 

[TCGreek]

Well, from John MacArthur (Perseverance) the following is stated:

John MacArthur, the most significant proponent of LS (he calls it a pejorative description) equates it to the doctrine of perseverance. I'd say that this recognition, coming from his own lips and connecting how he teaches the gospel to be "nothing other than the doctrine of perseverance" is rather weighty regarding the connection between the two.

1. I understand where JM is coming from, but we need not confuse the results of that initial reception of salvation by its results, in the process of sanctification.

Even, Lou says that saving faith has active results.

But to be sure, MacArthur refers in direct contrast in this treatment of perseverance, to that which is antithetical to his position; that being what he labels "radical easy-believism".

2. In this respect, I agree with JM, but not with the initial reception of salvation---so I see the link to perseverance.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

2. In this respect, I agree with JM, but not with the initial reception of salvation---so I see the link to perseverance.

And I to think I imagined my discovery taking until tomorrow. Oh well, now I have The Angelic Conflict...conflict...to resolve. :laugh:

 

[TCGreek]

And I to think I imagined my discovery taking until tomorrow. Oh well, now I have The Angelic Conflict...conflict...to resolve. :laugh:

But, the LS has been moved from the initial reception of salvation to the end of the matter---this is to me a whole new animal.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

1. Is Lordship Salvation (LS) a logical outworking of Calvinism?

Something I learned about this whole debate was how sharply the division line is between LS and non-LS was related to the differences between Reformed or Calvinistic Theology and Dispensationalism.
Apparantly some have seen the dispensational understanding of God's covenants as being unconditional being related to a lack of covenantal obligation with regard to salvation.
I can provide a quote from Gentry's book, but it's lengthy and I'm lazy.

Obviously, MacArthur along with a few others would be dispensational and LS, but that is apparantly not the norm for the LS side.

 

[TCGreek]

Something I learned about this whole debate was how sharply the division line is between LS and non-LS was related to the differences between Reformed or Calvinistic Theology and Dispensationalism.
Apparantly some have seen the dispensational understanding of God's covenants as being unconditional being related to a lack of covenantal obligation with regard to salvation.
I can provide a quote from Gentry's book, but it's lengthy and I'm lazy.

Obviously, MacArthur along with a few others would be dispensational and LS, but that is apparantly not the norm for the LS side.

MacArthur is not dispensational; he is a historic premil.

 

[canadyjd]

...On the other hand, if through discovery I reveal the validity of the strong connection, then the thumbs up will be in order...

and

Well, from John MacArthur (Perseverance) the following is stated:


Quote:
No doctrine has been more savaged by the system of theology that advocates merely intellectual faith as the condition of salvation,because the doctrine of perseverance is antithetical to the entire system that is so oriented. In fact, what proponents of this system have pejoratively labeled "lordship salvation" is nothing other than the doctrine of perseverance!

I'll give you a :thumbs: for finding the quote so quickly and for quoting him fully and in context. Well done.
peace to youraying:

 

[Isaiah40:28]

MacArthur is not dispensational; he is a historic premil.

His church's doctrinal statement reads like dispensationalism as opposed to historic premil.
It teaches a pre-trib rapture and a distinction between Israel and the church.
Is that historic premil?

 

[Rippon]

J.M. calls himself a leaky Dispensationalist .

 

[TCGreek]

His church's doctrinal statement reads like dispensationalism as opposed to historic premil.
It teaches a pre-trib rapture and a distinction between Israel and the church.
Is that historic premil?

Historic premil keeps Israel separate from the church.

 

[TCGreek]

J.M. calls himself a leaky Dispensationalist .

Only in jest, Rippon. :thumbs:

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

His church's doctrinal statement reads like dispensationalism as opposed to historic premil.
It teaches a pre-trib rapture and a distinction between Israel and the church.
Is that historic premil?

MacArthur uses dispensational schematics but does not identify with the body and movement of "Dispensationalists" that has developed over the last 50 years, so I am certain that using the description of "Dispensationalist" in describing MacArthur would include too many views he does retain in his theological teachings.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Historic premil keeps Israel separate from the church.

And does it teach a pre-trib rapture as well?
I thought that they have a different timing for the rapture than dispensationalists.

 

[TCGreek]

And does it teach a pre-trib rapture as well?
I thought that they have a different timing for the rapture than dispensationalists.

MacArthur is pretrib, and if you do a study of Dispensational premil, you will see why MacArthur doesn't fit.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Compared to traditional Dispensationalism and traditional Covenant theology, Mac falls waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to the dispensational side. His commentaries and study Bible show this clearly, and most of us reformed types who are militantly anti-covenanters join to give Mac an "amen".

 

[Allan]

And does it teach a pre-trib rapture as well?
I thought that they have a different timing for the rapture than dispensationalists.

Yes, he believes in a pre-trib rapture in the same manner as other dispensationalists.
Just as there are different groups of Calvinists there are different groups with regard toward dispensational theology. Many like the Charismatic groups on TV have taken beyond the biblical understanding and study into the twilight zone. Yet, unfortunately it is the minority who is typically used by other views to bash that view and proclaim THIS is what they ALL believe when in fact it is not close in most cases.

I taught a verse by verse through Rev (took a little over a year and are about to finish up soon) for our Wed Night bible study group and the main person I used as both a guide and study check is J. MacAuthur. I agree with 95 to 97% of his view and is what I have been taught as a Non-Cal in church and studied in School.