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Featured Is Mattew 12:40 Employing Common Jewish Idiomatic Language?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by rstrats, Feb 5, 2017.

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  1. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth". However, I think a large number of Baptists believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection. This period, though, allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy, some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language. But in order to legitimately say that it was employing common, idiomatic/figure of speech/colloquial language, one would have to know of other instances where a daytime or a night time was predicted to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur. I wonder if anyone knows of examples to support the assertion that is was common practice?
     
    #1 rstrats, Feb 5, 2017
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    "Lightfoot quotes from the Jerusalem Talmud two Rabbis as saying, 'A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole'" (Matthew, by John Broadus, p. 276).
     
    #2 John of Japan, Feb 6, 2017
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Jesus says one part of an Onah has tewlve hours leaving twelve hours for the rest of the Onah.

    John 6:11
     
    #3 percho, Feb 6, 2017
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    John 11:9. He didn't use the term onah, and wasn't talking about more than one day, so I would think that verse is irrelevant.
     
    #4 John of Japan, Feb 6, 2017
  5. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    The answer is in the middle of what John of Japan said. Any part 0f a day counted as one, much as most consider it today.
     
    #5 th1bill, Feb 6, 2017
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Help the unlearned. What is an onah. Where is it found either in Jonah or Matthew?

    Is it Hebrew or Greek?
     
    #6 percho, Feb 6, 2017
  7. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    John of Japan

    re: " 'Lightfoot quotes from the Jerusalem Talmud two Rabbis as saying, 'A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole' ' (Matthew, by John Broadus, p. 276)."



    That interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make any sense. On the one hand it's saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then it turns right around and says that a day OR a night define an Onah. What makes more sense is that it's saying that a day is an Onah and a night is an Onah but that any part of a daytime can be counted as a whole daytime and any part of a night time can be counted as a whole night time.

    And that interpretation is supported by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries at the time, who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica".

    Also, a definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study" says: "The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."
     
    #7 rstrats, Feb 7, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    th1bill,
    re: "Any part 0f a day counted as one, much as most consider it today."

    If I said that I spent the day and night yesterday working on a legal brief, wouldn't you expect that at least a part of the daytime and at least a part of the night time would have been involved?
     
    #8 rstrats, Feb 7, 2017
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Onah is a Hebrew word meaning "season" or "day and night." It apparently does not occur in the OT, but is used by Jewish interpreters when discussing the idiom, "day and night."
     
    #9 John of Japan, Feb 7, 2017
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for an informative post. I'm not that informed in this area, not a Hebrew scholar by any means, but as a linguist I would hazard that onah in my post is being used as an idiom, in which the literal interpretation does not match up to the actual meaning.
     
    #10 John of Japan, Feb 7, 2017
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  11. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    If we were keeping time according to today's customs, yes but that should never, it does too often, but should never reflect on the text of the scriptures about Jesus that were recorded some 2,000 years ago. One must do extra-biblical study and learn customs from a people we never knew.
     
    #11 th1bill, Feb 7, 2017
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  12. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    th1bill,

    So you're suggesting that it was customary in the 1st century to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred?
     
    #12 rstrats, Feb 7, 2017
  13. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    No, look at the avatar I use, that is me, do I appear stupid and in need of words I have never spoken? Now, go back to my first post, see, I said any part of a day would be counted as a day. i.e. If Jesus were entombed at 3.00 pm on Thursday and arose at 9:15 am on Saturday it would be said He had been in the grave three days, then, even though today we would say about a day and a half. Please don't do that to me, it is very rude and tends look uneducated when one turns and spins the words of another into what the hearer wants to hear. It is just plain rude.
     
    #13 th1bill, Feb 7, 2017
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Uh, well, uh, ahem, um . . . . . :Whistling:Speechless:p:Cool emoticon-satisfied-8727787.jpg emoticon-whistling-8727881.jpg
     
    #14 TCassidy, Feb 7, 2017
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  15. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    LOL! But, in reality the world has moved into the Church and it becoming so darn common to spin what a person says to fit what the hearer wants to hear them say and they will never enjoy the LORD's take on that... He knows it as lies. People must try, no matter how much evcery one of us failsd, to live Holy Lives.
     
    #15 th1bill, Feb 7, 2017
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    IMHO to use Onan in context to scriptures in Matt. or Jonah =

    Rehabilitated?
    Red: I know what you think it means, sonny. To me, it's just a made up word. A politician's word, so young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie, and have a job. What do you really want to know? Am I sorry for what I did?

    The Shawshank Redemption
     
    #16 percho, Feb 7, 2017
  17. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    th1bill,
    re: "No, look at the avatar I use, that is me, do I appear stupid...?"

    What TCassidy said.



    re: "...and in need of words I have never spoken?...Please don't do that to me, it is very rude"

    I was simply asking you a question. What is rude about that?



    re: "...go back to my first post, see, I said any part of a day would be counted as a day."

    And I agree. However, I thought that maybe you were suggesting that that practice somehow showed that it could be customary to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. But from your reply it appears that you are not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate and therefore have no need to suggest that.
     
    #17 rstrats, Feb 9, 2017
  18. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    But the context of my post said nothing of the sort. Now, let's not bicker as children and allow this string to get back to it's intent, okay?
     
    #18 th1bill, Feb 9, 2017
  19. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    th1bill,
    re: "...let'snotbickeraschildrenandallowthisstringtogetbacktoit'sintent, okay?"



    It's more than ok. So perhaps someone new looking in knows of examples
     
    #19 rstrats, Feb 9, 2017
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The key, in my view, is understanding that there were two methods of determining when a day began. And not sure if memory serves me correctly or not, but I think it was Northern Jews' day began at dusk whereas the South observed it from daybreak. I have read that this accounting allowed for observance for the great number of people who attended. But don't quote me on that, lol.

    To answer the post, I don't see it as a concrete three days and nights, primarily because "nights" are not found in each quote. For example:


    Matthew 12:40

    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Matthew 26:61

    And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Matthew 27:40

    And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Matthew 27:63
    Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.


    If Passover was observed on Thursday Evening that would make the three days spoken of.


    God bless.
     
    #20 Darrell C, Feb 26, 2017
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