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Is Paradise part of Hell?

Gup20

Active Member
So rather than go through all that, let's just shorten the process and agree to disagree. How about we meet in heaven and ask Christ to explain it to us. If your right, I'll let you make fun of me when we walk down the golden streets on our way to get fruit from the Tree of Life.

Love Ya,
keith

Keith - here is some food for thought (pardon the lame pun).

Can you walk down Golden Streets without first partaking of the Tree of Life? And where exactly is "paradise" if it is not in heaven?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (said Jesus to the theif next to him on the cross on the day of his death)

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. (said Jesus to Mary on the 3rd day after his resurrection)

So if Jesus told the theif he would be with him in Paradise THAT DAY, but 3 days later had not yet ascended to heaven, is Paradise in Hell?

According to Eph 4:9 didn't he decend into Hell before ascending to heaven? And what about Psalms:

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Is Paradise in Hell then?

Also consider Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Is this "Abraham's bosom" place Paradise? A part of Hell where there is no torments, but you are still separated from the Father in heaven?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I think Rev 2 talks about a tree of life that is by a river that flows from the throne and judgement seat of God in heaven. But it says "paradise of God".

So what happened to the Tree of life in Genesis 1-3? God put a sword-wielding angel to guard it so that no one could get to it. Then is there one here on earth (maybe in Paradise or hell which is beneath the earth), and one in heaven?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
 

Martin Luther

New Member
Keith - here is some food for thought (pardon the lame pun).

Can you walk down Golden Streets without first partaking of the Tree of Life? And where exactly is "paradise" if it is not in heaven?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (said Jesus to the theif next to him on the cross on the day of his death)

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. (said Jesus to Mary on the 3rd day after his resurrection)

So if Jesus told the theif he would be with him in Paradise THAT DAY, but 3 days later had not yet ascended to heaven, is Paradise in Hell?

According to Eph 4:9 didn't he decend into Hell before ascending to heaven? And what about Psalms:

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Is Paradise in Hell then?

Also consider Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Is this "Abraham's bosom" place Paradise? A part of Hell where there is no torments, but you are still separated from the Father in heaven?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I think Rev 2 talks about a tree of life that is by a river that flows from the throne and judgement seat of God in heaven. But it says "paradise of God".

So what happened to the Tree of life in Genesis 1-3? God put a sword-wielding angel to guard it so that no one could get to it. Then is there one here on earth (maybe in Paradise or hell which is beneath the earth), and one in heaven?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.


It was at one time.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is this "Abraham's bosom" place Paradise? A part of Hell where there is no torments, but you are still separated from the Father in heaven?

Yes, and after Jesus' ressurrection He led paradise into heaven.

Eph 4:8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

:jesus:
 

Marcia

Active Member
"Hell" was a translation of a word for grave and also for Sheol, the place of the dead. It's not like hell the way it's used today as the place of eternal punishment. That has not been created yet - technically, that hell is the lake of fire.

I am the odd woman out - I am not convinced that the 2 compartment theory is true but don't really have time to debate it.
 

jofuss

New Member
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


LET ME LET YOU IN ON SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY RATHER WIDELY KNOWN. THE ORIGINAL GREEK HAS NO PUNCTUATION. THE COMMA INSERTED AFTER THE WORD "THEE" AND BEFORE "TODAY" WAS DONE SO BE TRANSLATORS. IT IS INCORRECT.

THE MEANING IS CORRECTED WHEN THE COMMA IS PLACED AFTER "TODAY":

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS IS SAYING "TODAY I'M TELLING YOU, YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."

JESUS DIDN'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE PRESENTED HIMSELF AS THE WAVE SHEAF FIRSTFRUITS ON 16th NISSAN OF 31 AD - SUNDAY.

THE THIEF WON'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE IS RESURRECTED AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING.
 

Gup20

Active Member
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


LET ME LET YOU IN ON SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY RATHER WIDELY KNOWN. THE ORIGINAL GREEK HAS NO PUNCTUATION. THE COMMA INSERTED AFTER THE WORD "THEE" AND BEFORE "TODAY" WAS DONE SO BE TRANSLATORS. IT IS INCORRECT.

THE MEANING IS CORRECTED WHEN THE COMMA IS PLACED AFTER "TODAY":

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS IS SAYING "TODAY I'M TELLING YOU, YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."

JESUS DIDN'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE PRESENTED HIMSELF AS THE WAVE SHEAF FIRSTFRUITS ON 16th NISSAN OF 31 AD - SUNDAY.

THE THIEF WON'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE IS RESURRECTED AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING.

That is an interesting point, but Paradise's location in Hell doesn't hinge on that single verse. I do like Steaver's point which makes sense of the verse regardless of it's punctuation.

I think we can all agree that - at this moment - paradise is not in hell. Would you agree to that statement jofuss? Steaver? All?
 

Martin Luther

New Member
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


LET ME LET YOU IN ON SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY RATHER WIDELY KNOWN. THE ORIGINAL GREEK HAS NO PUNCTUATION. THE COMMA INSERTED AFTER THE WORD "THEE" AND BEFORE "TODAY" WAS DONE SO BE TRANSLATORS. IT IS INCORRECT.

THE MEANING IS CORRECTED WHEN THE COMMA IS PLACED AFTER "TODAY":

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS IS SAYING "TODAY I'M TELLING YOU, YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."

JESUS DIDN'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE PRESENTED HIMSELF AS THE WAVE SHEAF FIRSTFRUITS ON 16th NISSAN OF 31 AD - SUNDAY.

THE THIEF WON'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE IS RESURRECTED AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING.


All O.T. saints are already in heaven.


Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Revelation 6:10-11

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 

Gup20

Active Member
ML, I agree the OT saints are in heaven. But I would add that OT saints had to believe in Jesus Christ just as we do

NO MAN comes to father except by Jesus

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And also:

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

And finally (a list of OT saints who died in faith -- including Rahab, a Gentile -- in Hebrews 11):

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 

Martin Luther

New Member
ML, I agree the OT saints are in heaven. But I would add that OT saints had to believe in Jesus Christ just as we do

NO MAN comes to father except by Jesus

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And also:

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

And finally (a list of OT saints who died in faith -- including Rahab, a Gentile -- in Hebrews 11):

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



I agree but you forgot the best verse.

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


LET ME LET YOU IN ON SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY RATHER WIDELY KNOWN. THE ORIGINAL GREEK HAS NO PUNCTUATION. THE COMMA INSERTED AFTER THE WORD "THEE" AND BEFORE "TODAY" WAS DONE SO BE TRANSLATORS. IT IS INCORRECT.

THE MEANING IS CORRECTED WHEN THE COMMA IS PLACED AFTER "TODAY":

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS IS SAYING "TODAY I'M TELLING YOU, YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."

This has been refuted. This is a position held by the JWs.

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."​
This rendering comes from the New International Version (NIV), and has overwhelming scholarly support.1 Contrasted with this is the Watchtower Society's NWT rendering of Luke 23:43, which, in order to support their own preconceived doctrinal biases, is rendered:
And he said to him, "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."​
Notice the placement of the comma after rather than before the word "today", to the effect that, rather than promising to be in paradise that very day, Jesus simply spoke his words "today".

As expected, the Watchtower Society claims it is they who have interpreted the passage correctly, in the face of the scholarly community; the traditional rendering as found in scholarly translations is brushed off as another "misinterpretation" by 'worldly' scholars:
Misplaced pauses can completely change the thought of a sentence. An illustration of this is the words of Jesus at Luke 23:43, "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." If the comma or pause were put between the first "you" and "today" a completely different thought would result, as is evidenced by the common misinterpretation of this text. –Theocratic Ministry School Guidebook, 1971, page 120.​
The Society's position in regard to Luke 23:43 is simply this: the traditional rendering as found in accepted, scholarly translations of the New Testament does not agree with Watchtower Society doctrine, and as such, is a mistranslation.

Jeopardized by the accepted scholarly rendering of Luke 23:43 are two central Watchtower Society doctrines, these being that mankind does not possess an immaterial spirit element, and that the evildoer to whom Jesus spoke (and by extension, Jehovah's Witnesses today) did not and will not receive a heavenly reward. In other words, if Luke 23:43 is correctly translated as "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise", two of the Society's most core doctrines are shown to be patently false.2
http://www.geocities.com/thewatchtowerstudy/truly.htm
 

Marcia

Active Member
I am not alone in my belief that Paradise is with God. John Pkper notes there are only 2 other places in the NT that use this word, and they both depict heaven:

What is this paradise? The word is found in two other places in the New Testament. First, in 2 Corinthians 12:3 Paul says, "I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows—and he heard things which cannot be told, which man may not utter." Thus, Paradise is the heavenly abode of God where there are found things prepared by God for those who love him, which are utterly indescribable (1 Corinthians 2:9). The second place the word "Paradise" is found is in Revelation 2:7. Here Jesus says to the church at Ephesus, "To him who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God." And if we look at the end of the book of Revelation we find that the tree of life is in the heavenly city of God. In Revelation 22:1 John said, "Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...81/293_Today_You_Will_Be_with_Me_in_Paradise/

Also, this commentator believes Paradise is heaven:
The Greek word translated "paradise" at Luke 23:43 is paradeisos, and it is used only three times in the New Testament. It in fact consistently refers to heaven, not an earthly paradise as the Watchtower Society dogmatically states. Consider:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. And I know that this man–whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows–was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. –2 Corinthians 12:2-4
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is [present tense] in the paradise of God. –Revelation 2:7
If we allow scripture to translate scripture, there is no reason to doubt that paradeisos at Luke 23:43 refers to heaven, as it does in each of the other NT occurrences
http://www.geocities.com/thewatchtowerstudy/truly.htm
 

Martin Luther

New Member
I am not alone in my belief that Paradise is with God. John Pkper notes there are only 2 other places in the NT that use this word, and they both depict heaven:


http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...81/293_Today_You_Will_Be_with_Me_in_Paradise/

Also, this commentator believes Paradise is heaven:

http://www.geocities.com/thewatchtowerstudy/truly.htm



Christ is returning with the O.T. saints, those who died after the resurrection will come out of the graves and those still alive will then follow. They meet the Lord in the air and then spend the next 1000 years living with Christ here on earth, not in heaven. All those who have died after the resurrection are excluded from time. To them the journey will seem instantaneous. Some call this soul sleep but time is a matter of perspective.
 
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