Is Physical Death the Penalty for Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If it is, all have not sinned, for all have not or will not die. Follow, or correct, the following attempt at logic.

If sin is a universal principle, and all have sinned, ( and ‘all’ means without exception) then the penalty for sin would be passed to all. (with ‘all’ meaning without exception)

All do not see physical death, therefore either all have not sinned or physical death cannot be the punishment for sin.

At some point in time in our discussions, if we are to arrive at any meaningful ideas surrounding the connection between physical death and sin, we are going to have to factor in the distinction between a ‘consequence of ’ and ‘the penalty for’ sin.

 

[billwald]

Interesting problem in a confused way.

Are you talking about death as a transition phase in one's esixtance? (Even) Jesus died.

if death has not been universal in the last 2000 years then how many 1000 year old people are walking the earth?

There isn't one verse in Gen thru Deu that refers to one's status in the next life. All the blessings and cursings in Exo thru are temporal and specific to people living in the Land. There is nothing in Gen thru Deu that specifies death as a punishment (?).

 

[soninme]

death ........ sin ........

Death by sin
In conclusion, all who are members of the human race:
all are born spiritually dead and separated from God by sin, and thus fall short of His glory

dying without Christ will face a "second death", which is the lake of fire

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BW: Are you talking about death as a transition phase in one's esixtance? (Even) Jesus died.

HP: Absolutely Jesus died. He tasted death for everyman. Just the same I can point to some that did not see death, i.e. Enoch and Elijah.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

You cannot just start lumping together ‘death’ and a ‘transition phase in ones existence,’ as if though one of necessity refers to the other or they both refer to the same process. Scripture clearly distinguishes between the two, does it not?.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Soninme: In conclusion, all who are members of the human race:
all are born spiritually dead and separated from God by sin, and thus fall short of His glory

HP: Where is your Scriptural support for that assumption? Are you going to refer us to Psalms 58 as did Pastor Bob?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Death by sin
In conclusion, all who are members of the human race:
all are born spiritually dead and separated from God by sin, and thus fall short of His glory

dying without Christ will face a "second death", which is the lake of fire

So what happens to these sinful babies born seperated from God who die? Do they burn in Hell?

Sounds awful Augustinian to me...

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Agnus Dei: Sounds awful Augustinian to me...

HP: Did I hear the sounds of running water? :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 5 appears to argue that physical death is here due to sin

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Romans 5 appears to argue that physical death is here due to sin

HP: Many are the maladies due to sin or as a consequence of sin, but ‘due to sin’ or ‘as a consequence of sin’ and ‘the penalty of sin’ are indeed different issues.

A prisoner may die in prison as a consequence of a long prison sentence, but you cannot necessarily say that death was the penalty for his crime. It certainly was a natural consequence, but it was not necessarily the inflicted penalty.

One needs to make a clear distinction in the penalty of sin between physical death which may or may not be a consequence of sin, (whether or not one will meet the Lord in the rapture or die first) and spiritual death. The penalty for sin is none other than spiritual death, i.e., eternal separation from God and that without exception. Physical death may or may not be a necessitated consequence of sin or being born as a human. I believe we can safely say that we only know of two so far that have, at least until this point, escaped physical death. Just the same, there are two. It is my hope that those that are alive when Christ returns will not see death either, but will be translated even as Enoch and Elijah were. I see no indication of numerous dead bodies laying around at the rapture of the Church, do you?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think physical death is part of God's penalty for sin. For the redeemed death no longer is death, for the redeemed believes "the death of death in the death of Christ", as John Owen said. Reformed colloqual for this is, death is only a door through which we enter upon Life Eternal. I believe it MUST betrue physically because it IS true spiritually! Don't we as believers live according to the Spirit as Paul said? Then of course the flesh and death cannot rule or have the upper hand - especially not in that moment of the death of death in death!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The death of death in death ... it becomes something to look forward to! Am I wrong or sinning for thinking so? I think Paul also believed something like that, and I can't see where he thought he was wrong or sinning thinking so.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't believe Paul would think he sinned thinking so, for behind such a view as the death of death in death, we as believers, see Christ standing with the key of the grave and the key of life, Himself there to welcome the trusting and hoping in. This is the difference between Islam and Christian Faith. Islam blinly walks into hell, blindly believing he earns 'heaven'. The Christian looses himself and as it were dissolves himself in Jesus Christ, the Power of the Resurrection in the last day - whether that last day be his or the Day of the Lord - it's all the same, his life being hid in God in Christ. "Blessed assurance"!

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting problem in a confused way.

Are you talking about death as a transition phase in one's esixtance? (Even) Jesus died.

Did Jesus die "because of sin"? Yes - he died to deal with it and we die because of it.

But more than that - in Rev 20 we see "the Second death" this is the real wage of sin accoring to Romans 6 "the Wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is eternal life".

In John 11 Christ said that His followers would not suffer the 2nd death "He who believes on Me -- though he were dead YET shall he live".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

The penalty for speeding is a ticket. Not everybody that speeds gets a ticket. Everybody around me is speeding. Will everybody get a ticket? No. Does that mean the penalty is not a ticket?

The police are busy.

God is merciful. Enoch was grateful. :godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Trustit: The police are busy.

God is merciful. Enoch was grateful.

HP: Maybe, according to your scenario, God was simply busy and a couple just slipped past Him. :tonofbricks:

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Absolutely Jesus died. He tasted death for everyman. Just the same I can point to some that did not see death, i.e. Enoch and Elijah.

The mere fact that these two men were taken to heaven differently than any other does not mean that did not experience death in some fashion. Do you maintain that they ascended to heaven in their literal, physical bodies? If so, how do you justify that with I Cor. 15:50? If you do not maintain this belief, then they did, in fact, suffer the first death which is separation of the soul from the body. The second death is the separation of the soul from God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: The mere fact that these two men were taken to heaven differently than any other does not mean that did not experience death in some fashion.

HP: I am not the author of Scripture. Read it for yourself in the case of Enoch. “Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Now let me ask you. Does Scripture say that Enoch saw death or did not see death? Please, do not take my words. Allow the Word of God and the plain truth it states to instruct you.

Pastor Bob: Do you maintain that they ascended to heaven in their literal, physical bodies?

HP: I cannot help but believe that if we were standing there watching Enoch being translated, or Elijah stepping onto that heavenly chariot, that it might appear that way to us. Just the same, I also believe that everything physical must be changed in order to inhabit eternity, for that is the testimony of Scripture. In the case of Enoch. Scripture states that he did NOT see death as we know it. I believe it can be assumed that the case of Elijah was similar.

Pastor Bob: If so, how do you justify that with I Cor. 15:50?

HP: 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The problem is that it appears that you cannot accept the Scriptural truth that one does not have to see death in order to be changed. What are you going to do at the rapture when those that are alive and remain will be caught up together with Christ in the air? Where is physical death mentioned here?

As a Pastor you should be familiar with death. Whatever you know about it did not happen to Enoch or Elijah nor will it happen to the saints that will be caught up together with the Lord as far as I can tell. If you believe differently, show us from the Word of God where death came to Enoch or Elijah or that those believers alive at the second coming will have to die in order to be ‘caught up’ with Him in the air.

Another alternative might be for one to define ‘death’ as merely being changed from the temporal and physical to the eternal and spiritual. That is not necessarily my position at this time, but it might make for some lively discussion.

Pastor Bob: If you do not maintain this belief, then they did, in fact, suffer the first death which is separation of the soul from the body.

HP: Maybe you define death as I suggested some might do. How do you define death?

Pastor Bob: The second death is the separation of the soul from God.

HP: I agree.

 

[webdog]

I believe the curse of physical death is passed to all men regardless of sin, otherwise abortions would be impossible, as they have committed no sin.

Spiritual death passes to all men when they sin. "All have sinnned" is not only past tense language, but shows the ability TO sin, as they "have" done so.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: I believe the curse of physical death is passed to all men regardless of sin, otherwise abortions would be impossible, as they have committed no sin.

HP: To state ones belief may be honorable but lacks muster to convince. How one substantiates ones beliefs is where the muster lies.

Enoch and Elijah pose a problem. How do you get around the Scriptural notion that Enoch did not see death? I also believe it can be properly assumed that neither did Elijah. What about those in the rapture at the second coming of Christ?

Are you also going to tell us that it would have been impossible for Eve to kill Adam or Adam to kill Eve before the recorded fall?

 

[webdog]

HP: To state ones belief may be honorable but lacks muster to convince. How one substantiates ones beliefs is where the muster lies.

Enoch and Elijah pose a problem. How do you get around the Scriptural notion that Enoch did not see death? I also believe it can be properly assumed that neither did Elijah. What about those in the rapture at the second coming of Christ?

Are you also going to tell us that it would have been impossible for Eve to kill Adam or Adam to kill Eve before the recorded fall?

Scripture also tells us our bodies are not fit for Heaven. Regardless if someone "dies"...these corruptible bodies do not enter Heaven, so they still "die" so to speak, even those raptured. One may not lose consciousness, but the current flesh is not fit for Heaven.