Is Romans 7 speaking of a Christian or unbeliever.

[Piper]

I had a long discussion with a former Theology Professor of mine.

He believes that it is an unbeliever. I think it is talking about the Christian and his ongoing struggle with indwelling sin.

I'll give a few reasons as the thread develops.

 

[taisto]

I had a long discussion with a former Theology Professor of mine.

He believes that it is an unbeliever. I think it is talking about the Christian and his ongoing struggle with indwelling sin.

I'll give a few reasons as the thread develops.

I have had similar discussions on this topic.
We must remember that Paul is arguing a case for how we are justified. It is very likely that Paul has had this debate in many synagogues and he is showing us his argument as well as the questions his opponents argued back to him. Paul argued for justification by faith alone. The rabbi's argued for justification by works. Here, I would argue, in Romans 7, Paul is showing us what sin has done to us when we are trying to be justified by following the Law. This would be the effects of sin before faith. Later, at the end of this chapter and into chapter 8, we will see how Jesus changes our lives by his gracious salvation.

So, I think this section expresses our pre-salvific state while we were under the law.

(Romans 7:4-25)
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good. But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes. Struggling with Sin So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

 

[MrW]

I had a long discussion with a former Theology Professor of mine.

He believes that it is an unbeliever. I think it is talking about the Christian and his ongoing struggle with indwelling sin.

I'll give a few reasons as the thread develops.

Believer.

 

[terrpn]

Thee relationship of the Law to a believer.

 

[Van]

Romans Seven speaks to those born anew, but addresses our pre-salvation conditions. First thinking we were spiritually alive because we were unaware of our sinful behavior and its consequences, then learning we were spiritually dead as the Law was leading us to Christ.

 

[Piper]

To me, the decisive verse is 22.

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

I see the point of Van and Taisto, but to me, from what I see in the NT, an unbeliever cannot delight in the law of God in his inner being. Unbelievers hate God.

 

[taisto]

To me, the decisive verse is 22.

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

I see the point of Van and Taisto, but to me, from what I see in the NT, an unbeliever cannot delight in the law of God in his inner being. Unbelievers hate God.

Did the Pharisees delight in the law of God in their inner being? Do legalists delight in keeping laws? My observation is that they do. So, verse 22 doesn't, to me, demand faith.

The question comes with verses 18-20, "And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it."

Yet, Galatians 2:20 tells us, "My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

This leads me to understand that Paul is showing us the transition from slavery in sin to freedom in Christ.

From Romans 7:21-25, we see Paul expressing a natural desire to follow the law, but sin, which has enslaved us, will not let us go.

I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

The answer to being justified is not, then, with keeping the law, but is with Jesus, whom Paul will tell us in Romans 8, takes away all our condemnation and justified us by faith alone.

I think the tricky part to this passage is that we as Christians certainly struggle with our flesh. In Galatians Paul tells us that the Spirit and the flesh fight constantly. But, the key, for me in Romans 7, is the term "slave to sin." As believers we are no longer a slave to sin, which is why we will see Paul transition to the freedom Christ gives us and the full justification given to all who believe.

We still struggle with sin, but we are not enslaved to sin. We have been crucified with Christ. That breaks the chains of slavery. Therefore Paul says "Thanks be to Jesus " That's the transition. That's the point in Romans 7 where we are transformed and Paul is making this great argument for justification by faith by contrasting our life when we were attempting to be justified by works.

That's my view, but I certainly appreciate and understand the argument on the other side. It's the term "slave to sin" that guides my thoughts. I don't see believers as being slaves to sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To me, the decisive verse is 22.

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

I see the point of Van and Taisto, but to me, from what I see in the NT, an unbeliever cannot delight in the law of God in his inner being. Unbelievers hate God.

What is to hate if you do not believe. Then God, for all intents & purpose, doesn’t exist.

 

[MrW]

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 ¶ But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. ~ Galatians 2

And we know He did not die in vain.