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Is the 1611 KJV a hybrid translation?

L

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
KJV defender David Sorenson identified the 1535 Coverdale’s Bible as “a hybrid translation” (Faithful Word, p. 102) [bold type added]. Orlaith O’Sullivan maintained that Coverdale’s “1535 Bible relies heavily on [George] Joye’s earlier translations” of the books of Psalms, “Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes,” which were the first printed translations of those books into English (Bible as Book, p. 25). Orlaith O’Sullivan asserted: “Joye’s Psalms resound through those of the Bibles of the English Renaissance, and a substantial proportion of them survived into the King James Version” (p. 29). In 1531, George Joye (c1495-1553) had his translation of the book of Isaiah printed, and O’Sullivan noted: “The vocabulary and format of Joye’s work is recognizable in the King James Version” (p. 30). O’Sullivan wrote: “Joye’s own work stands independently as another source for the King James Version” (p. 34).

KJV defender David Sorenson wrote: “Like the Bible which bore his name—the Coverdale Bible, the Great Bible was another hybrid translation” (Faithful Word, pp. 105-106) [bold type added]. KJV-only author Robert Sargent maintained that in the Great Bible, Coverdale used the Latin Vulgate and the Latin translation of Erasmus in his revision of the New Testament of the Matthew's Bible and used the Latin Vulgate in his revision of the Old Testament of the Matthew's Bible (English Bible, p. 196). KJV-only author Thomas Holland maintained that the Great Bible, “based on the Traditional Text of the New Testament, was revised and altered in accordance with the Latin Vulgate” (Crowned, p. 79).

Considering the fact that the KJV is based on multiple, varying original-language texts and is a revision of multiple, textually-varying pre-1611 English Bibles and according to a consistent application of how David Sorenson used the term, should the KJV be considered a hybrid translation? Since the 1611 KJV is a revision of two earlier English Bibles considered to be hybrid translations, does that indicate that the KJV may also be one?

Considering the fact of the multiple textually-varying sources used in the making of the KJV and the replacement renderings taken from the 1582 Rheims, would it be 100% accurate to assert that the KJV emerges solely or completely from the Received Text? Do the many borrowed renderings from the 1582 Rheims in effect also make the KJV partially a hybrid Bible? Could the KJV’s borrowing from the Latin Vulgate or 1582 Rheims serve as a bridge to the modern versions?
 
L

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Gail Riplinger asserted that Miles Coverdale “was intimately involved in the process of the Bible’s being ’given’ (2 Tim. 3:16) and ’purified’ (Ps. 12:6, 7) in English” (Hazardous Materials, p. 1165). Gail Riplinger maintained that “God entrusted Wycliffe and Coverdale with the transmission of the text” (p. 1167). Gail Riplinger claimed: “The words of the Coverdale Bible are still seen in today’s KJB, particularly in the Old Testament” (p. 1165).
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Logos1560 said:
(Ps. 12:6, 7)
Click to expand...
Verse 6, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
But verse 7 is about persons, "Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Verse 7 note, them from: Heb. him, etc: that is, every one of them, etc
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Verse 6, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
But verse 7 is about persons, "Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Verse 7 note, them from: Heb. him, etc: that is, every one of them, etc
Click to expand...
refers ONLY to the inspired originals, not towards any translation
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Logos1560 said:
KJV defender David Sorenson identified the 1535 Coverdale’s Bible as “a hybrid translation” (Faithful Word, p. 102) [bold type added]. Orlaith O’Sullivan maintained that Coverdale’s “1535 Bible relies heavily on [George] Joye’s earlier translations” of the books of Psalms, “Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes,” which were the first printed translations of those books into English (Bible as Book, p. 25). Orlaith O’Sullivan asserted: “Joye’s Psalms resound through those of the Bibles of the English Renaissance, and a substantial proportion of them survived into the King James Version” (p. 29). In 1531, George Joye (c1495-1553) had his translation of the book of Isaiah printed, and O’Sullivan noted: “The vocabulary and format of Joye’s work is recognizable in the King James Version” (p. 30). O’Sullivan wrote: “Joye’s own work stands independently as another source for the King James Version” (p. 34).

KJV defender David Sorenson wrote: “Like the Bible which bore his name—the Coverdale Bible, the Great Bible was another hybrid translation” (Faithful Word, pp. 105-106) [bold type added]. KJV-only author Robert Sargent maintained that in the Great Bible, Coverdale used the Latin Vulgate and the Latin translation of Erasmus in his revision of the New Testament of the Matthew's Bible and used the Latin Vulgate in his revision of the Old Testament of the Matthew's Bible (English Bible, p. 196). KJV-only author Thomas Holland maintained that the Great Bible, “based on the Traditional Text of the New Testament, was revised and altered in accordance with the Latin Vulgate” (Crowned, p. 79).

Considering the fact that the KJV is based on multiple, varying original-language texts and is a revision of multiple, textually-varying pre-1611 English Bibles and according to a consistent application of how David Sorenson used the term, should the KJV be considered a hybrid translation? Since the 1611 KJV is a revision of two earlier English Bibles considered to be hybrid translations, does that indicate that the KJV may also be one?

Considering the fact of the multiple textually-varying sources used in the making of the KJV and the replacement renderings taken from the 1582 Rheims, would it be 100% accurate to assert that the KJV emerges solely or completely from the Received Text? Do the many borrowed renderings from the 1582 Rheims in effect also make the KJV partially a hybrid Bible? Could the KJV’s borrowing from the Latin Vulgate or 1582 Rheims serve as a bridge to the modern versions?
Click to expand...
I am still trying to figure out on what basis KJVO keeps denying as valid Kjv version the NKJV, Kjv2021, MVB etc?
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Verse 6, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
But verse 7 is about persons, "Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Verse 7 note, them from: Heb. him, etc: that is, every one of them, etc
Click to expand...
Psa 12 has nothing to do with the preservation of the whole Bible. This Psalm was written by David who lived about 1000 years before any NT epistle was penned. As a matter of fact none of the prophetic books of the scriptures had been written when he wrote this Psalm. So many of the things David wrote about sprung from events that happened in his own life that we know today fore shadowed events of the future and they became prophetic. These things are parallels. God in his providence directs history to repeat itself and unfold. Prophecy is circular. The Bible student must learn this. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. Whatever is has already been. (or something similar to that)

So in this sense I maintain that this has nothing to do with the Bible, translation or otherwise. It has nothing to do with the church because Bible believers would read that the formation of the church of Jesus Christ as we see it today was not a matter of OT prophecy and was hidden from the prophets.

Let me show you how past tense events are used to reveal future events that may be far in the future.

Ps 7:1 Shiggaion of David, which he sang unto the LORD, concerning the words of Cush the Benjamite. O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:

Ps 3:1 A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son. LORD, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me.

parallels: David is a prophet and his songs are prophesies. David is a type of Jesus Christ and Israel, the nation, is figured as a man (22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn) and the prophecies of Jesus Christ and Israel are parallels

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet,

None of those things that are said in Psa 12 can be true in a world where sin has been put away and sinners have been reconciled to God by one who has been qualified by testing to accomplish it, which Jesus Christ was. Psa 12 cannot be true in a world where God has as his own operative principle of divine dealing with the whole world of GRACE. But it can be true if God gives only a certain time frame for men to embrace his gift of grace.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

So, if Ps 12 is not about the Bible, what is it about? The key verse in this psalm is verse 5 where the LORD says he will ARISE (from the current location on the Father's throne) and answer the prayer of the poor and needy to deliver them from the man of sin that is puffing at them. Why are they poor and needy? Because they are the remnant of Israel who cannot buy or sell because they have refused the mark of this man and they are slated to be killed. They have already been purged and purified by the 7 white hot fiery furnace judgements of the great tribulation.

There are 12 psalms in this theme where Israel prays for deliverance and there is frustration because the LORD does not seem to hear their prayer and they suspect he is even asleep and beg him to wake up. It is a parallel of Jesus in the hull of the boat with the disciples on the sea of Galilee during the horrific storm and they cry out, why sleepeth thou, careth thou not that we perish." The number 12, the number for the perfect government of God, the only one of these psalms where he spoke and promised to deliver them. Number 5 which is his number for grace. Seven verses in the Psalm, the number for complete things.

Lu 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Ps 44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
Ps 44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies sake.

The promise to the poor and needy is to ARISE and deliver them.

I will come back later and give you all 12 verses in this theme.

God does deal with the Bible question but not in any way that these academics who view themselves as the smartest people in the room will ever be able to figure out without bowing the knee to him.

We are living in a time of grace where God has already accepted the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the whole world and will save the soul of any sinner who will willingly come to God, the justifier of sinners, in the name of Jesus Christ believing this salvation is in him alone, but it will not always be so. The reason the godly man perishes from among men is because the church is raptured to heaven and there is not one righteous man left on earth to begin this tribulation time except the two witnesses that God sends from heaven, Moses and Elijah.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
Only the original books were inspired by the Holy Spirit as being inerrant and perfect when penned down
Click to expand...
The text of the original books of holy scriptures did not cease to be holy scriptures because they were copied or translated.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
JD731 said:
Psa 12 has nothing to do with the preservation of the whole Bible. This Psalm was written by David who lived about 1000 years before any NT epistle was penned. As a matter of fact none of the prophetic books of the scriptures had been written when he wrote this Psalm. So many of the things David wrote about sprung from events that happened in his own life that we know today fore shadowed events of the future and they became prophetic. These things are parallels. God in his providence directs history to repeat itself and unfold. Prophecy is circular. The Bible student must learn this. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. Whatever is has already been. (or something similar to that)

So in this sense I maintain that this has nothing to do with the Bible, translation or otherwise. It has nothing to do with the church because Bible believers would read that the formation of the church of Jesus Christ as we see it today was not a matter of OT prophecy and was hidden from the prophets.

Let me show you how past tense events are used to reveal future events that may be far in the future.

Ps 7:1 Shiggaion of David, which he sang unto the LORD, concerning the words of Cush the Benjamite. O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:

Ps 3:1 A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son. LORD, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me.

parallels: David is a prophet and his songs are prophesies. David is a type of Jesus Christ and Israel, the nation, is figured as a man (22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn) and the prophecies of Jesus Christ and Israel are parallels

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet,

None of those things that are said in Psa 12 can be true in a world where sin has been put away and sinners have been reconciled to God by one who has been qualified by testing to accomplish it, which Jesus Christ was. Psa 12 cannot be true in a world where God has as his own operative principle of divine dealing with the whole world of GRACE. But it can be true if God gives only a certain time frame for men to embrace his gift of grace.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

So, if Ps 12 is not about the Bible, what is it about? The key verse in this psalm is verse 5 where the LORD says he will ARISE (from the current location on the Father's throne) and answer the prayer of the poor and needy to deliver them from the man of sin that is puffing at them. Why are they poor and needy? Because they are the remnant of Israel who cannot buy or sell because they have refused the mark of this man and they are slated to be killed. They have already been purged and purified by the 7 white hot fiery furnace judgements of the great tribulation.

There are 12 psalms in this theme where Israel prays for deliverance and there is frustration because the LORD does not seem to hear their prayer and they suspect he is even asleep and beg him to wake up. It is a parallel of Jesus in the hull of the boat with the disciples on the sea of Galilee during the horrific storm and they cry out, why sleepeth thou, careth thou not that we perish." The number 12, the number for the perfect government of God, the only one of these psalms where he spoke and promised to deliver them. Number 5 which is his number for grace. Seven verses in the Psalm, the number for complete things.

Lu 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Ps 44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
Ps 44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies sake.

The promise to the poor and needy is to ARISE and deliver them.

I will come back later and give you all 12 verses in this theme.

God does deal with the Bible question but not in any way that these academics who view themselves as the smartest people in the room will ever be able to figure out without bowing the knee to him.

We are living in a time of grace where God has already accepted the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the whole world and will save the soul of any sinner who will willingly come to God, the justifier of sinners, in the name of Jesus Christ believing this salvation is in him alone, but it will not always be so. The reason the godly man perishes from among men is because the church is raptured to heaven and there is not one righteous man left on earth to begin this tribulation time except the two witnesses that God sends from heaven, Moses and Elijah.
Click to expand...
Big long rant.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The text of the original books of holy scriptures did not cease to be holy scriptures because they were copied or translated.
Click to expand...
The inspiration from and of the Holy Spirit only were upon those originals, as no translation can claim such today
 
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