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is the Holy Spirit a person

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by wopik, Oct 3, 2004.

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  1. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Just because the KJV uses the word "his" to refer to the Holy Spirit, does not automatically mean the Spirit is a person.

    such as the following:

    "And you shall make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made; his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same" (Exodus 25: 31, kjv).


    another example is when Peter was set free by the angel of the Lord:

    Acts 12:10, kjv --- "...they came unto the iron gate...which opened to them of his own accord:..."
     
    #1 wopik, Oct 3, 2004
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You can not "lie to the candle" the Candle does not "Speak as it hears from God", the candles does not "Give the gifts out to each one according to ITS WILL" 1Cor 12. The candle can not be "grieved". The Candle is not "your teacher replacing Christ" as "ANOTHER helper" John 14, John 16.

    It is impossible to miss the personhood of God the Holy Spirit.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2004
  3. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition, article: Spirit of God (all quotes come from this article) ---

    "The OT (Old Testament) clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God's spirit is simply God's Power.

    If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly (Isa. 48:16; 63:11; 32:15).......Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Isa. 63:10; Wis.1:3-7). When such expressions are used, THEY ARE MERE FIGURES OF SPEECH that are explained by the fact that the RUAH was regarded also as the seat of intellectual acts and feeling (Gen. 41:8)."

    THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA FURTHER STATES:

    ".......the NT (New Testament) concepts of the Spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT.......The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.

    When a quasi-personal activity is ascribed to God's spirit, e.g., speaking, hindering, desiring, dwelling (Acts 8:29; 16:7; Rom.8:9), one is NOT JUSTIFIED IN CONCLUDING immediately that in these passages God's spirit is regarded as a Person; the same expressions are used in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas (see Rom.6:6; 7:17).

    Thus the context of the phrase 'blasphemy against the spirit' (Mat.12:31; cf. Mat.12:28; Luke 11:20) shows that reference is being made to the power of God".
     
    #3 wopik, Oct 3, 2004
  4. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia-----theres your problem! Try a real encyclopedia
     
    #4 tamborine lady, Oct 4, 2004
  5. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    [​IMG]
     
    #5 dianetavegia, Oct 4, 2004
  6. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Or better still, Wopik, try the Bible.
    All formal English versions read similarly. The Greek makes it clear that Jesus is speaking about a person, not some nebulous force.
     
    #6 Michael52, Oct 4, 2004
  7. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    Michael52, would you define the word "person" when pertaining to the Godhead? :confused:

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #7 MEE, Oct 4, 2004
  8. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Yeah, I gotta say that I'm not getting this "person" ideology.

    "Person" as in "entity?" Or "Person" as in "corporeal being?"
     
    #8 tragic_pizza, Oct 4, 2004
  9. natters

    natters New Member

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    wopik, the Catholics are the biggest defenders of the Trinity. Those quotes you provide are true, if understood in the context of specific passages. They are not saying as a whole that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but that certain areas of scripture do not speak of him as such.

    It's like saying "Genesis 1:1 does not clearly express the divinity of Jesus". That doesn't mean that I'm questioning Jesus' deity, but rather speaking a truth about Genesis 1:1.
     
    #9 natters, Oct 4, 2004
  10. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    You grieve people not things...

    Think about it... [​IMG]
     
    #10 SpiritualMadMan, Oct 4, 2004
  11. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Michael52, would you define the word "person" when pertaining to the Godhead? :confused:

    MEE [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]MEE

    I am not a theologian, so I might possibly come up with a heretical definition for ‘“person” when pertaining to the Godhead’. But, since you asked, I will give my best “layman’s” answer in light of the verses I quoted.

    Jesus is speaking to his disciples. The "helper" he referred to was obviously someone other than himself. Certainly, by any reckoning, Jesus is a person. He is not an ordinary person, of course, but Christianity does not make much sense unless we allow that Jesus is(was) a person like us, though sinless. He is a person who, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” If he is God, then he has always been God. If he is now a person, then he has always been a person. Jesus said, “I and the Father are one”. God must also be a person. I think this is why the apostles and Jesus himself described their relationship as that of a father and son; the same in essence, yet different in person. Though Jesus and the Father are one, they are not the same. Jesus said that “the Father was greater than he”, certainly because Jesus had in some sense, self-limited his eternal glory during his temporal incarnation.

    In the gospel of John, Jesus describes “another” who will be sent by Him, by the Father and by them both. He would, “not leave them as orphans”. This Helper, Comforter, Spirit would take Jesus’ place after his ascension. He would communicate the very thoughts of the Father and Jesus to Jesus’ disciples. As in the quote I gave, this Holy Spirit is described with the attributes of “personhood” (ie “he”, “him”, “that one”, etc). In my understanding, the Bible describes no other being that has the intimate knowledge of God’s thoughts (not angels, not Moses, not Satan) except God himself. Thus, this Holy Spirit is God. He is not God the Father. He is not God the Son. But, He is a person in the same way Jesus is a person and the Father is a person.

    Yes, this is clear as “mud”. I personally wouldn’t think much of a god who was humanly fathomable. :rolleyes: ;)

    “Holy, Holy, Holy – merciful and mighty, God in three persons, blessed trinity” [​IMG]

    [ October 04, 2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Michael52 ]
     
    #11 Michael52, Oct 4, 2004
  12. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    I truly enjoy participating in threads where my questions are ignored.
     
    #12 tragic_pizza, Oct 4, 2004
  13. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Tragic...

    Your point of whether person-hood requires corporeal form or not is non sequitur because it clearly says that God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

    This would make The Holy Spirit clearly non-corporeal..

    However, attributes we use to relate personhood: Emotions; Feelings; Expression; Intelligence; Self-Awareness, are all part of the 'person-hood' we refer to as God's Holy Spirit.

    Hope this helps...

    BTW: You *really* could use a little more patience, though... [​IMG]
     
    #13 SpiritualMadMan, Oct 4, 2004
  14. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    It has nothing to do with patience, and everything with not knowing what in the bright sam hill you people are talking about.
     
    #14 tragic_pizza, Oct 4, 2004
  15. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Entity, would probably fit better. All corporeal beings are entities. Not all entities are corporeal beings (per the Bible).

    Humans are entities, corporeal beings and persons, who are created in the image of God. God is not a corporeal being, except for Jesus in his incarnation. Would personhood be part of the image of God we are endowed with?
     
    #15 Michael52, Oct 4, 2004
  16. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    So the question is whether or not the Holy Spirit is an entity or a... concept?
     
    #16 tragic_pizza, Oct 4, 2004
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Michael52
    tragic_pizza
    (we must never ignor pizza's questions).

    The Catholic Encyclopedia could have it right when it says the Holy Spirit is the Power of God.

    The Bible does say just that: "And the angel answered and said unto her [Mary], 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you....' " -- Luke 1:35.

    ***********************************

    "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt 1: 18, 20). If the Holy Spirit "impregnated" Mary, this would be God's Power, not a third person.

    For the Holy Spirit is not Jesus' father. God the Father is, through His Power, through His Spirit.
     
    #17 wopik, Oct 4, 2004
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Appealing to the RCC for theology and doctrine should only be used when trying to correct a Catholic, not when speaking to non-Catholics.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Oct 4, 2004
  19. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    tragic_pizza

    Yes, that is the question. Do you view God, the Creator of everything, as an entity or as a concept?
     
    #19 Michael52, Oct 5, 2004
  20. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    tragic_pizza

    Yes, that is the question. Do you view God, the Creator of everything, as an entity or as a concept?     </font>[/QUOTE]If I viewed the Everlasting as a concept, I'd be at best an agnostic, wouldn't I?
     
    #20 tragic_pizza, Oct 5, 2004
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