is there REALLy per Bible An "Age of Accountibility?"

[JesusFan]

That God will "overlook" assigning to people personal responsibility for their sins until they are aware of their sinful status before Him?

that He has applied the atoning work of the Cross to cover them, up until they realise need to be saved by a saviour?

or is it just a good idea, no real Biblical proof?

 

[Allan]

That God will "overlook" assigning to people personal responsibility for their sins until they are aware of their sinful status before Him?

that He has applied the atoning work of the Cross to cover them, up until they realise need to be saved by a saviour?

or is it just a good idea, no real Biblical proof?

The age of accountability (or AoA) is a biblical concept though not explicitly set forth in scripture much like infant salvation which also is not explicitly set forth.

The AoA concept is not about when a person 'could be' saved (as in a specific or certain 'age') but when they come to that understanding of sin and righteousness before God. It is important not confuse the AoA with that point of salvation because the AoA is speaking only about when we come to His understanding of sin.

I posted this in another "age of accountability" Thread a while back:
However you will find scriptures that do speak not so much as to a 'specific' age but to a time in every persons life when God reveals His truth to them. That truth is not like some parents try to teach their children (ex doing bad things = sin and doing good things = ?? ) I brought this up in our Sunday school class about term good and bad are perceptions those things acceptable to the one we wish to please. Thus God's terms for good and bad are righteousness and sin.

All children must understand sin according to its nature and offense to God not mom and dad because then the child will use their parents standard to determine what is sin and not Gods. Part of understanding Salvation is understanding you have 'sinned' against a 'Holy' God and are deserving of hell. Thus also an understanding this aspect as well is needed, indeed necessary that it might be a "Good News to the one who's eyes have been opened.

There are various verses in scripture which convey this concept.
For example - Christ illustrates according to John, that accountability is determined when one has an understanding of sin:

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

or

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

Another verse to be considered and is often used is when King Davids child dies, David knows that when he dies he will be with his child. David also knew that when he died he would be with the Lord ..."I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".

Jesus also talks about allowing the 'Children to come to him for such is the kingdom of heaven". Though it is a direct reference to humility and faith (notice all have it ) and thus the example for adults to be like those children and have trust/faith, it is also an interesting reference regarding the acceptance of them all for "of such is the kingdom of heaven". Apparently heaven is made up of such and gives much credence to Davids proclamation and actions at the death of his son.

Does this mean children do not have sin - by no means. But they are not held accountable as of yet for them (John 9:41) but as one with no sin.

The age is different for each person not so much so because they can or can't understand it (though it is a factor in relation to the rational mind) it falls specifically as to when God reveals truth that goes deeper than mans perspective of good and bad.

 

[AresMan]

I agree with a form of "age of accountability" with the disclaimer that it is based entirely on God's grace and NOT on some kind of intrinsic innocence on the part of children.


King David said that he was conceived in sin.
Paul said that the wages of sin is death.


Young children go to heaven because of God's grace in pardoning them and covering them with the blood of Christ for their lack of understanding.

 

[Tom Butler]

Allan, your post #2 is the best explanation of AoA that I have ever read.

 

[Allan]

I agree with a form of "age of accountability" with the disclaimer that it is based entirely on God's grace and NOT on some kind of intrinsic innocence on the part of children.


King David said that he was conceived in sin.
Paul said that the wages of sin is death.


Young children go to heaven because of God's grace in pardoning them and covering them with the blood of Christ for their lack of understanding.

I would agree.

 

[Skandelon]

Allan,

I agree with what you have said here, very well laid out.

However, picking up on part of an earlier discussion which never really was resolved... Do we know from scripture that this "opening of the eyes' or "giving understanding" is some supernatural inward working of the Spirit rather than His working through more normative means (preaching, teaching, church, prayer etc?)?

As discussed, I think it can be clearly shown that though we all agree God has the ability to supernaturally affect man's will to understand/believe/accept his truths and callings, but God typically works through normative (outward) means which involve the use of other people (i.e. Jonah, Paul etc)

Understand my question?

 

[revmwc]

Adam and Eve were vreated in innocence with an ability to sin but waht caused them to need a saviour?

Genesis 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 3:
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

They were innocent untilthey ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and thus became accountable. People are not accountable until they obtain the knowledge of good and evil.

Man knew as God knew:
Genesis 3:
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

He had knowledge of God's standard and therefore became accountable. That is when one becomes accountable for their sin is when they know as God knows the standard for sin.

 

[webdog]

Does this mean children do not have sin - by no means. But they are not held accountable as of yet for them (John 9:41) but as one with no sin.

Notice also Jesus said "your sin remains" not "Adam's sin remains".

 

[TomVols]

I agree with a form of "age of accountability" with the disclaimer that it is based entirely on God's grace and NOT on some kind of intrinsic innocence on the part of children.


King David said that he was conceived in sin.
Paul said that the wages of sin is death.


Young children go to heaven because of God's grace in pardoning them and covering them with the blood of Christ for their lack of understanding.

Well said.

Some prefer the phrase "Age of responsibility," though these terms should be used with great caution so as to prevent misunderstanding and a misrepresentation of the gospel truth.

 

[TomVols]

Part of understanding Salvation is understanding you have 'sinned' against a 'Holy' God and are deserving of hell. Thus also an understanding this aspect as well is needed, indeed necessary that it might be a "Good News to the one who's eyes have been opened.

This doesn't need to be told to just children. This needs to be told to everyone.

Today's gospel has become a "Fix your life" elixir. Plug the gap. Make yourself more morally and socially upward. Become the best possible "me" I can be. The biblical gospel flies in the face of this.

Am I alone in wondering, "How many people have really heard the gospel?" when you realize that so much today that parades as gospel barely talks about salvation, since there's barely a mention of what we're being saved from.

Anyway, well said. The fields are ready. Let's go to work.

 

[JesusFan]

Notice also Jesus said "your sin remains" not "Adam's sin remains".

You are not saying Paul and Jesus disagreed are you? Apostle clearly stated that we are all "in Adam" sinners, due to his fall, we all got counted by God as being guilty/sin natured
Those "in Christ" have been forgiven, and granted new natures from/n the Lord!

 

[JesusFan]

Aaron,

I agree with what you have said here, very well laid out.

However, picking up on part of an earlier discussion which never really was resolved... Do we know from scripture that this "opening of the eyes' or "giving understanding" is some supernatural inward working of the Spirit rather than His working through more normative means (preaching, teaching, church, prayer etc?)?

As discussed, I think it can be clearly shown that though we all agree God has the ability to supernaturally affect man's will to understand/believe/accept his truths and callings, but God typically works through normative (outward) means which involve the use of other people (i.e. Jonah, Paul etc)

Understand my question?

Think the "agent" the Holy spirit uses mainly today is the Bible, more specifically the preaching of the Gospel....
God has elected people unto himself to receive eternal life thru jesus, but he has chosen tio use us to preach/teach/proclaim the word and allow the HS to "wake them up"

 

[Skandelon]

Think the "agent" the Holy spirit uses mainly today is the Bible, more specifically the preaching of the Gospel....
God has elected people unto himself to receive eternal life thru jesus, but he has chosen tio use us to preach/teach/proclaim the word and allow the HS to "wake them up"

I agree, the point I'm attempting to make is that the means the HS uses to "wake them up" is typically "normative" or "outward" and not some inward, supernatural working.

For example, He might provoke them with envy (Rm 11:14), which may "wake them up." Or circumstance, like being swallowed by a big fish or blinded by a light. The death of a loved one, or loss of a job, eating food with pigs or other circumstances can be used along with preaching, teaching and prayer to bring understanding (or "wake them up"). Since the HS indwells and compels the preacher, inspired the authoring of scripture, and works through prayer and circumstances; all of these "normative" means are still credited as "a work of the HS," but just not as some additional secret inward supernatural light switch that must be turned on to give man the ability to accept. It just think that is something our systematizing of the text has added. If God wanted to change Jonah's mind he could have used some secret inward light switch and just made him to be willing to obey, but I don't think God works like that. That is all.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Notice also Jesus said "your sin remains" not "Adam's sin remains".

If infants didn't suffer from the sin of Adam then they wouldn't die.

However, I think the bible does indeed deal with personal accountability in the Greek.

Mark 10:16 ESV
16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

The word translated as blessed here is eulogeo it is the same word from which we get eulogy, to speak well of.

G2127
εὐλογέω
eulogeō
yoo-log-eh'-o
From a compound of G2095 and G3056; to speak well of, that is, (religiously) to bless (thank or invoke a benediction upon, prosper): - bless, praise.

So, Jesus who is the advocate for sinners spoke well of the children, Jesus is not the advocate for lost sinners. The Trinity is always unified and never in conflict. If Christ speaks well of the children before his father then he will speak well of the children before his father now. I see no reason to believe that with Jesus speaking well of the children they would be damned anyway. I believe that death during childhood is nothing more than a sign of election based on this passage.

I believe this passage proves there is indeed an age of accountability.

 

[webdog]

If infants didn't suffer from the sin of Adam then they wouldn't die.

By this logic Christ was a sinner since He died.

 

[webdog]

You are not saying Paul and Jesus disagreed are you? Apostle clearly stated that we are all "in Adam" sinners, due to his fall, we all got counted by God as being guilty/sin natured
Those "in Christ" have been forgiven, and granted new natures from/n the Lord!

Paul and Jesus both agreed, Paul also said we were dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-5).

We are in Adam's condition the same way Adam got there, by consciously violating God's law. The whole of Scripture attests to this simple fact, not the one built on less than a handful of Scriptures used to create an entire doctrine.

 

[revmwc]

Paul and Jesus both agreed, Paul also said we were dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-5).

We are in Adam's condition the same way Adam got there, by consciously violating God's law. The whole of Scripture attests to this simple fact, not the one built on less than a handful of Scriptures used to create an entire doctrine.

Define the type of death Paul is speaking of, since there are seven types of death spoken of in scripture. How were we dead in tresspasses and sins and when did this occur?

 

[webdog]

Define the type of death Paul is speaking of, since there are seven types of death spoken of in scripture. How were we dead in tresspasses and sins and when did this occur?

I answered your question in my previous post.

 

[JesusFan]

Paul and Jesus both agreed, Paul also said we were dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-5).

We are in Adam's condition the same way Adam got there, by consciously violating God's law. The whole of Scripture attests to this simple fact, not the one built on less than a handful of Scriptures used to create an entire doctrine.

Difference is that Adam was created pure and innocent , had "holy" nature not corrupted by sin yet...

he was the head of Human race before God, when he fell into sin, "died" spiritually, so his sin before God passed to all his descendants, so that ALL humans born after him would be receiving his sin nature, spiritual dead from the womb, and also before God gulity of the sin, as all of us are in Adam...

 

[Osage Bluestem]

By this logic Christ was a sinner since He died.

He only died because he took on the guilt of our sins. If he didn't do that he wouldn't have died.