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Is this an inaccurate, unfaithful rendering?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Logos1560, Apr 23, 2005.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    2 Samuel 5:21
    And there they left their images, and David and his men burned them (KJV)

    And they left their images there, and David and his men carried them away (NKJV)

    Concerning 2 Samuel 5:21 in the NKJV, D. A. Waite
    claimed that the NKJV "changes verb" and in effect claimed that this change in the NKJV
    is "not faithfulness in translation," "not accuracy in translation," and "not reliability in translation" (NKJV COMPARED TO KJV, p. 32).

    Is this claim by Waite accurate? Are KJV-only
    advocates willing to apply their claims consistently?
     
    #1 Logos1560, Apr 23, 2005
  2. alexander284

    alexander284 Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm..... That is interesting! [​IMG]

    I don't know of any other translation that renders that passage as "burned them" other than the KJV. :confused:

    Every modern English translation I have checked says either "carried them away" or "carried them off." ;)

    Good question! [​IMG]
     
    #2 alexander284, Apr 23, 2005
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Under the heading "Both Elevate Idol Worship,"
    Douglas Stauffer, a KJV-only author, wrote:
    "According to the NIV, what did David and his men do with the idols? In God's word, they obeyed by burning them. In contrast, the pro-Catholic NIV states that they 'carried them off.' No longer can the reader grasp the seriousness of the matter, nor can he read this account of their simple obedience" (ONE BOOK STANDS ALONE, p. 210).
     
    #3 Logos1560, Apr 23, 2005
  4. alexander284

    alexander284 Well-Known Member

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    Wow! I didn't know the NIV is "pro-Catholic!" :rolleyes:

    Here is how the Holman Christian Standard Bible translates 2 Samuel 5:21--

    "The Philistines abandoned their idols there, and David and his men CARRIED THEM OFF." [​IMG]

    I guess that means the HCSB is "pro-Catholic," too. :eek:

    Someone had better let the Southern Baptist Convention know about this! [​IMG]
     
    #4 alexander284, Apr 23, 2005
  5. mcgyver

    mcgyver New Member

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    Here's an interesting twist:

    1 Chron. 14:12 (recounting the same incident):

    "They abandoned their gods there; so David gave the order and they were burned with fire." NASB

    "And when they left their gods there, David gave a commandment, and they were burned with fire." NKJV

    "The Philistines abandoned their idols there, and David ordered that they be burned in the fire." HCSB

    "And when they had left their gods there, David gave a commandment, and they were burned with fire." KJV

    Hmmm....I'd like to see the Hebrew text.

    My guess is that David's men carried them to a little open area, piled them up and torched 'em.
     
    #5 mcgyver, Apr 23, 2005
  6. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    This is a conjecture on the part of the KJV translators, that all the surviving Hebrew MSS at 2 Sam. 5:21 were corrupted from the original. Chronicles seems to be more accurate in other similar cases. The base difference here Hebrew is between WYSA' and WYSRF, and one can see how a possible corruption might have occurred.

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
    #6 Bluefalcon, Apr 23, 2005
  7. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    James D. Price noted: "The KJV followed the Targum, emending the MT to harmonize with a parallel passage [1 Chron. 14:12] unnecessarily" (TEXTUAL EMENDATIONS, pp. 16, 61).

    The KJV may have been following the Geneva Bible which had made this same emendation and had as a note its reason for it--"1 Chronicles 14:12."
     
    #7 Logos1560, Apr 23, 2005
  8. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Based on the Hebrew at 2 Samuel 5:21, which
    translation [KJV or NKJV] has the more literal
    rendering?

    The KJV itself translated this same Hebrew word as "carried away" at 2 Chronicles 14:13
    and 16:16. The 1535 Coverdale's Bible on the KJV-only view's line of good Bibles has the same rendering as the NKJV at 2 Samuel 5:21 ["David and his men carried them away"]. The 1537 Matthew's Bible has this rendering: "David and his men took them up." The 1611 edition had this marginal note with the literal meaning of the Hebrew: "Or, took them away."

    This example shows how that holders of a KJV-only view often fail to apply their own claims or reasoning consistently.
     
    #8 Logos1560, Apr 23, 2005
  9. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    According to the Biblica Hebraica Stuttgartensia and using Strong's numbers, the word in question is transliterated as "nasa'" (naw-saw) and it means "to lift, bear up, carry, take." Therefore, the NKJV rendering is more accurate than the KJV rendering.

    Using the same sources for 1 Chron 14:12, the word in question is transliterated as "saraph" (saw-raf) and it means "to burn."

    Maybe McGyver hit the nail right on the head when he said "My guess is that David's men carried them to a little open area, piled them up and torched 'em." Sounds like a reasonable plan to get rid of something that is no longer wanted - people in rural areas still use the same plan today.
     
    #9 Keith M, Apr 23, 2005
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The preponderance of evidence shows that Waite's claim against the NKJV at 2 Samuel 5:21 was inaccurate.
     
    #10 Logos1560, Jun 6, 2005
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    There is a second case of the same word (NASA') translated as "burn" in the KJV: Nahum 1:5.

    Na 1:5 KJV ...and the earth is burned (NASA' = Strongs #05375) at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

    To this likewise cf. the NKJV:

    Na 1:5 NKJV ... and the earth heaves at His presence, Yes the world and all who dwell in it.
     
    #11 Ziggy, Jun 6, 2005
  12. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    At this verse, the 1535 Coverdale's Bible (one of the early English Bibles of which the KJV was a revision) has: "at the sight of him, the earth quaketh."
     
    #12 Logos1560, Jun 10, 2005
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