Isaiah 14:12

Bro. Coley!!! Oh my!!! There is a church near me that is call "Morning Star Baptist Church"! According to the NIV those people are satanists!

 

You may find doing a search helpful, because we hash this out every so often

 

Who doesn't believe what book?

 

Even so, Lord Jesus, come quickly!!! HURRY!

 

this thread was starting to remind me of the old abbott and costello routine "who's on first"? sorry just a thought i'd throw a light moment into the fray....

 

"Lucifer" is the old English, and Latin (from the Vulgate) term for Venus, the morning star. The Hebrew is "helel ben shahar" (Helel son of Shahar), and in Babylonian religion (see verse 4, this is to the king of Babylon), Helel was a god, personified in Venus the morning star. Shahar was his father, the god of the morning (or dawn).

Scads more could be written (marginal notes from 1611 KJV and prior Bibles, lexicon information, Vulgate information, etc.) but that sums it up.

The NIV's reading is right. The KJV's reading is right. The Hebrew is right. It is your interpretation that is wrong.

[ July 25, 2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

What we must also understand is "Haylel" is a Masculine Absolute in the Hebrew. Masculine Absolutes are almost always translated as proper names. This is made clear hundreds of times in the OT. A word with a common meaning, such as "opened" (Yepheth) is translated "Japheth" when in the Masculine Absolute.

I believe the KJV is more accurate than the NIV at this point due to the KJV translating it as a proper name. If the NIV would capitalize the phrase as a proper name I would have no problem with the translation. After all, the morning star, Venus, proclaims a "false dawn" prior to the true dawn, just as Satan spreads a false light prior to the coming of the Light of the world.

 

I prefer the NIV's reading, because the meaning is more evident as most interpret "Lucifer" as a name for Satan rather than what it used to mean: the morning star, Venus. In other words, it is easier to misinterpret the KJV here.

 

So do you advocate translating any other proper names as if they were mere nouns/verbs? If so, which ones and what criteria do you use to decide which proper name to translate as such and which proper name would you not translate as such?

 

It is clear from the context that someone is being addressed. "You" appears 3 times in the verse, so I don't think anyone's going to think that a "mere noun" appears here, even thought it is not capitalized. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, "morning star" (even if rendered lower-case) in today's language is a better translation choice than "Lucifer". In this case, the term is both a name and a "mere noun" at the same time, for the god Helel was the morning star.

 

I don't know. Only Bible-correctors I know are some KJVOs. Now, back to the topic....

 

I can't help but notice you capitalized the word "He(y)lel."

 

I can't help but notice you capitalized the word "He(y)lel." </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, because, like I said, the term is both a name (Helel) and a "mere noun" (morning star) at the same time. When referencing by name, capitalize. When referencing as a mere noun, the need isn't there. Just like the next Babylonian god in the verse, which is both a name (Shahar) and a "mere noun" (morning or dawn).

 

I don't have the NIV on this PC, how does the NIV translate Revelation 22:16?

KJV Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

HankD

 

Good idea. I had the same thoughts.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Hank, hope that helps.