"It is Finished!"

[Primitive Baptist]

Right before Jesus died on the cross, He said, "It is finished." What did He mean? Can't wait to hear your responses.

1. My part is done, and the rest is up to you. If you hear about what I'm doing for you, good. If you don't, you're damned. I'm just going to have to get those hard-headed preachers over there, and hopefully the one who disobeys me isn't the one that's supposed to come your way!

2. Since my Father has predestinated not only people but events now, God will get the good news to you. Since I done a half-job, there are still other conditions you have to meet, but don't worry about it.

3. Don't worry, it's on me. No conditions; I promise! My blood will reconcile and redeem (cf. Rom. 5:10; Gal. 3:13). Hearing about it won't make it a fact.

 

[KenH]

You left out option Number 4:

4. I have finished all of the work, all of the punishment as your penal substitute. The Holy Spirit will spread this message throughout the earth so that you, My beloved, can rejoice, while still in jars of clay, in Me and through Me to the Father, and enjoy the hope of an eternity in the favorable presence of God.

One rejoicing,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ July 02, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
Right before Jesus died on the cross, He said, "It is finished." What did He mean? Can't wait to hear your responses.

1. My part is done, and the rest is up to you. If you hear about what I'm doing for you, good. If you don't, you're damned. I'm just going to have to get those hard-headed preachers over there, and hopefully the one who disobeys me isn't the one that's supposed to come your way!

2. Since my Father has predestinated not only people but events now, God will get the good news to you. Since I done a half-job, there are still other conditions you have to meet, but don't worry about it.

3. Don't worry, it's on me. No conditions; I promise! My blood will reconcile and redeem (cf. Rom. 5:10; Gal. 3:13). Hearing about it won't make it a fact.

4. I have fulfilled the work I was sent by my Father to do.

Trying to go any further than that is to add to the words of Christ.

 

[tyndale1946]

I won't answer your question because we are of like precious Faith and you know what I believe on the matter!... How do we know "IT IS FINISHED"... because his Father put his stamp on it by raising him from the dead!... My surety is in Jesus Christ because I believe what he said!... "IT IS FINISHED!" and I for one can rest in that fact!... Brother Glen

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Trying to go any further than that is to add to the words of Christ.

No, Jesus said way more than that.

"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." (Jn. 17:2)

Ken Hamilton, how can you be so sure all the elect will hear it if you don't believe in the absolute predestination of all things?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
how can you be so sure all the elect will hear it if you don't believe in the absolute predestination of all things?

I believe that God did not predestinate the reprobate to hell because they were headed there anyway, as all of us are until God intervenes. Election is always unto salvation, not reprobation. God sees to it that His people hear His word spiritually, not just physically.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[Primitive Baptist]

I totally agree with you...I don't believe all the elect will hear it. All of them will be born again because according to Jesus, that's a must. I don't believe in double predestination either, that God has predestinated the reprobate to hell. Just as you said, they were headed there anyway. And I certainly don't believe in the absolute predestination of all things, it's not Biblical. It's a strained view of true predestination. God predestinates people, not things. Like Elder R. H. Pittman said, "Advocate of this doctrine [Absolute Predestination] seek to prop predestination up on one side by 'absolute' and on the other side spread it over all thing." I like that

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
I believe that God did not predestinate the reprobate to hell because they were headed there anyway, as all of us are until God intervenes.

Ah, but we were predestined to sin - we were predestined to fall - we were, therefore, predestined to go to Hell, according to the Calvinist position. Either God is the primary cause of all things, or he is not. How could they "be headed there anyway?" How were we created to be headed there anyway? An eternal decree must equal God's predestining people to sin - that's where Calvin's idea of double predestination came from.

 

[ScottEmerson]

From Pink's Sovereignty of God:

"Clearly it was the divine will that sin should enter the world or it would not have done so. God had the power to prevent it. Nothing ever comes to pass except what He decreed--- God's decree that sin should enter this world was a secret hid in Himself." (7)

 

[tyndale1946]

Primitive baptist I agree with what you said and was being a little cautious because of the Absolute Predestination brethren among our ranks. I agree with you God predestinated people not things and according to the following verse we know when he did it!

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Notice the 28th verse which is my personal favorite... Are these Gods elected predestinated children?... Can't be anything but!

I'll throw this one in for good measure!

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

When Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED"... He finished it forever for all inward Jews!... Brother Glen

 

[Aki]

there is another thing that God has finished. that is, imputation of the Original Sin to everyone. With that, everybody became spiritually dead and condemned. And with that spiritual death which, again, was caused by God's imputation of the original sin to everyone, everyone sins. in fact even if someone do not commit a single sin all his life he remains condemned because of that imputation of the original sin by God.

with this, here are some conclusions:

1. if you call it grace when Christ died for only a selected few, what do you call it when God place a man to condemnation foremost because God Himself imputed this Original Sin in Him? Sovereignty?

2. God did place everyone into condemnation because Christ can die only for the condemned. That is why God placed everyone to condemnation even if they do not commnit their first sin yet but by imputing Adam's sin on them. God did not wait for someone to commit sin before condemning him. God already condemned him so that Christ's death will automaitacally reach him. Now that is a far superior grace than what the TULIP theology teach.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
An eternal decree must equal God's predestining people to sin - that's where Calvin's idea of double predestination came from.

Scott,

As I said before, I am a single predestinarian and an infralapsarian when it comes to the decrees of God. I am not going to try to defend double predestinarians or supralapsarians as I don't believe in the decrees of God as they do. You'll have to find one of them to discuss this issue with.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Primitive Baptists aren't Calvinists. Have you ever heard the quote, "If you scratch a Calvinist, you'll find an Arminian?" It's true because essentially they teach the same thing! Both Arminians and Calvinists teach the sinner must do something in order to be saved eternally. In other words, something has to be added to what Jesus did. Primitive Baptists don't teach that. Jesus did all that was necessary for the eternal salvation of His people at Calvary. Primitive Baptists don't teach fatalism hidden behind the name of "absolute predestination." Predestination is the purpose of God by which He determined the eternal destination of His elect before the foundation of the world (Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5, 11). The eternal destination of the elect is the end to where they were appointed - Heaven. Synonyms for "destination" are purpose, end, target, aim, goal, objective, and intention. It is God's purpose, end, target, aim, goal, objective, and intention to lead all His sheep safely home without the loss of one. God purposed it, and it will not be disannuled. "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Is. 14:27) Regardless where man's devices go - the man-made missionary societies, Sunday School, soul winners, etc. - God will save His people from their sins (Mt. 1:21). "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand." (Prov. 19:21) Jesus passed through Bethany, Jerusalem, and Samaria, but Calvary was His destination. Elder R. H. Pittman wrote, "They seek to prop up predestination on one side by "absolute," and on the other side they spread it over "all things." I can't speak for A. W. Pink or any other preacher, but Primitive Baptists don't advocate fatalism. Absolute predestinarians teach an extreme view of predestination that encompasses all the acts of mankind. The Bible doesn't teach that. In the day that Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, death passed upon all mankind. Every man is unaffectedly bound for destruction unless God intervenes. God predestinated His elect for Heaven. The rest are left in their natural condition of sin and condemnation bound for destruction in hell. God didn't predestinate them for destruction.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ken's #4 is the right answer. To assert that people will be saved without hearing the message of the gospel is to deny the very plainest text of Scripture. It is to suggest that sin is not as serious as it really is because you do not even have to know that you are a sinner with something to be saved from. We rightly get upset when someone preaches a deficient gospel -- one that ignores or redefines sin, or one that minimizes it. Yet here, when someone like PB denies that it needs to be understood to be saved, he has removed the heart of the gospel -- a sacrifice that reconciled man from a problem that he could do nothing about himself.

 

[tyndale1946]

Pastor Larry you know that I'm a PB too!... What are you going to do with those Jews who didn't believe the gospel in the following verse?... who by the way are Gods elect!... They had the greatest sin... Unbelief!... As did the Gentile brethren before them!

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes... Brother Glen

 

[Primitive Baptist]

To assert that people will be saved without hearing the message of the gospel is to deny the very plainest text of Scripture.

The Gospel is the proclamation of what Christ has already done. When you read the newspaper, does your reading about the events make them a fact?No. I know you believe all the elect will hear the Gospel because God predestinated them to hear it. What, then, become of the words of Jesus?

"Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest." (Mt. 9:38)

You make these words void of any meaning whatever and completely take out the responsibilty of man. Jesus is clear if we don't pray, the Gospel will not reach those for whom it is intended. According to absolute predestinarians, if God predestinated us to pray, we'll pray. If He didn't predestinate us to pray, we won't. That doctrine takes you around in cirles. When the Old Testament sacrifices were made, which were a shadow of Christ's sacrifice, the sins of the Israelites were forgiven; no conditions!

It is to suggest that sin is not as serious as it really is because you do not even have to know that you are a sinner with something to be saved from.

Jesus saved His people 2,000 years ago. Read carefully the words of Paul in Colossians 2:13 -"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" In other words, having forgiven them all trespasses, He quickened them. The sins were forgiven before He quickened them. Sin is serious. That's why God didn't put salvation in the hands of the preacher, evangelist, or any other man. The Bible states Jesus reconciled (Rom. 5:10) and redeemed (Gal. 3:13) the elect when He died on the cross. He didn't make reconciliation or redemption a possiblity, but a reality.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Scott,

As I said before, I am a single predestinarian and an infralapsarian when it comes to the decrees of God. I am not going to try to defend double predestinarians or supralapsarians as I don't believe in the decrees of God as they do. You'll have to find one of them to discuss this issue with.

Yet you said, the reprobate go to hell "because they were headed there anyway." And then you say you are an infralapsarian, which seems to mean that God permitted the fall of man, and then decided to elect a few people. These two things don't seem to go together. If God can such permit a man to commit evil, does that make him less sovereign?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
What are you going to do with those Jews who didn't believe the gospel in the following verse?... who by the way are Gods elect!... They had the greatest sin... Unbelief!... As did the Gentile brethren before them!

They go to hell for their sin. Their election spoken of here is obviously corporate election, not personal election. They did not lose their status as a member of the favored nation because of their unbelief. The promise to the fathers is still good (yet another support of a clear distinction between Israel and the Church in the NT).

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Yet you said, the reprobate go to hell "because they were headed there anyway."

The reprobate goes to hell because Adam sinned. Adam excluded the reprobate, not God. God's election is inclusive, not exclusive. God chose a people in Christ before the foundation of the world because He knew Adam was going to fall. Are you attempting to blame God for Adam's temptation? "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" (Jas. 1:13)

If God can such permit a man to commit evil, does that make him less sovereign?

No.

"That God's attitude toward sin is not compulsive, but permissive, restrictive, and overruling is fully demonstrated by the following Scriptures: II Chron. 32:31; Ps. 81:12; Mark 1:34; Luke 4:41; 8:32; Acts 2:23; 7:42; 13:18; 14:16; Rom. 1:24, 26, 28; 9:22;. The two strongest passages on predestination in the Scriptures, Acts 2:23 and Romans 9:22, contain the inspired word 'permit,' rendered in Acts 2:23 as 'delivered up' and in Romans 9:22 as 'endured.'" - Elder Sylvester Hassell

God overrules sin and directs it for His glory. Adam sinned of his own volition, and God chose a people to be "to the praise of the glory of His grace." (Eph. 1:6) Though Adam sinned, God is now worshiped as being our Saviour. God will get His glory.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
What, then, become of the words of Jesus?

"Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest." (Mt. 9:38)

You make these words void of any meaning whatever and completely take out the responsibilty of man. Jesus is clear if we don't pray, the Gospel will not reach those for whom it is intended. According to absolute predestinarians, if God predestinated us to pray, we'll pray. If He didn't predestinate us to pray, we won't.

It seems that you are the one who makes these verses completely unnecessary and show Christ saying something that was not true. Again, we are talking about the plain text of Scripture, not the conditions that you would like to read into it. Scripture says that salvation comes by faith, faith by hearing, hearing by the word of Christ. Other references are equally compelling. I believe that God works his sovereign will in response to prayers. He answers according to his will which gives us comfort in prayer. I have not removed the responsibility of man; you have.

The Bible states Jesus reconciled (Rom. 5:10) and redeemed (Gal. 3:13) the elect when He died on the cross. He didn't make reconciliation or redemption a possiblity, but a reality.

And the same Bible and the same apostle told us that God has given us the ministry/message of reconciliation and begged us to be reconciled to God. I agree that reconciliation and redemption are not possibilities. But I also believe that when Scripture talks of the necessity of faith for salvation, that's what it means. I do not have the option to change that because in my mind, it "adds" something to the work of Christ. I think when Christ said, "Whoever believes has eternal life and whoever does not believe is condemned already because he does not believe, he had his finished work in mind. There are simply too many passages that require belief in Christ for salvation for you to assert your own position in spite of it.

I agree about the quickening and making alive. But I believe that making alive includes a spiritual consciousness by which one responds to the message of the seriousness of sin and the sacrifice of the Christ.