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James 5:19-21
- Thread starter JamesJenn
- Start date
John Wells
New Member
Moved per your request!
We use the word convert in a very special sense today. We talk about a "new convert", or "your conversion experience" as if it were synonymous with salvation.
Fine for today. But can a person be "saved" and not yet "converted"? Jesus said so. He told His disciples (all saved but Judas) that they WOULD BE converted.
Salvation is internal. Miracle of the Spirit of God regenerating the heart.
Conversion is external. Deals with change in lifestyle, action, appearance (kinda like a "conversion van") or use.
So it is the vagueries of the evolving English language that confuse you. A brother (in the case of Jas 5:21) would do well to "convert" another brother from error in activity or thinking. That's what I do every time I preach!
Fine for today. But can a person be "saved" and not yet "converted"? Jesus said so. He told His disciples (all saved but Judas) that they WOULD BE converted.
Salvation is internal. Miracle of the Spirit of God regenerating the heart.
Conversion is external. Deals with change in lifestyle, action, appearance (kinda like a "conversion van") or use.
So it is the vagueries of the evolving English language that confuse you. A brother (in the case of Jas 5:21) would do well to "convert" another brother from error in activity or thinking. That's what I do every time I preach!
In the entire book of James you will find that he is talking about what true faith really is. He warns us that brothers who are not obeying the word may not be brothers at all, but may be deceiving themselves.
James 1:22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
He goes on to talk about faith vs works. Faith without works is dead. Why? Do actions or deeds save us? Certainly not, yet faith that does not result in works wasn't true faith. One must become a new creature.
Paul also warns us of "those who call themselves brothers".
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that James realized that not everyone who was associated with them was saved. That is why many of the letters to the churches touched on these issues. There were even some in Corinth that didn't believe in the ressurection. "1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
Romans says if you "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Now how can they be saved if they didn't even believe in the ressurection?
~Lorelei
James 1:22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
He goes on to talk about faith vs works. Faith without works is dead. Why? Do actions or deeds save us? Certainly not, yet faith that does not result in works wasn't true faith. One must become a new creature.
Paul also warns us of "those who call themselves brothers".
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that James realized that not everyone who was associated with them was saved. That is why many of the letters to the churches touched on these issues. There were even some in Corinth that didn't believe in the ressurection. "1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
Romans says if you "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Now how can they be saved if they didn't even believe in the ressurection?
~Lorelei
DocCas
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JamesJenn:
But isn't it saying that if you turn a christian from the error of his way it will save his soul from death. Meaning that the christian brethern, if he does not turn back will go to hell(death of the soul).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is not what it says. Paul tells us there is a "sin unto death." That is a sin a Christian commits which results in God "calling him home" to take it up with him personally. It is the death of the body, not of the soul, which is clearly impossible for the saved person.
But isn't it saying that if you turn a christian from the error of his way it will save his soul from death. Meaning that the christian brethern, if he does not turn back will go to hell(death of the soul).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is not what it says. Paul tells us there is a "sin unto death." That is a sin a Christian commits which results in God "calling him home" to take it up with him personally. It is the death of the body, not of the soul, which is clearly impossible for the saved person.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
Paul tells us there is a "sin unto death." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to be picky, but isn't this JOhn?? Or is there a passage I am forgetting (which is entirely possible).
Paul tells us there is a "sin unto death." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to be picky, but isn't this JOhn?? Or is there a passage I am forgetting (which is entirely possible).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is that the verse you are referring to? If so, will you please explain it to me? What is that sin that leads to death that we can not pray for???? I have always wondered that.
~Lorelei
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is that the verse you are referring to? If so, will you please explain it to me? What is that sin that leads to death that we can not pray for???? I have always wondered that.
~Lorelei
I found this explaination by John Gill very helpful and hope it sheds light on this subject.
a sin [which is] not unto death; every sin, even the least sin, is in its own nature mortal, or deserving of death; the proper wages of sin is death, yea, death eternal; yet none of the sins of God's elect are unto death, or issue in death, in fact; which is owing not to any different nature there is in their sins, or to their good works which counterbalance them; but to the grace of God, and to the blood and righteousness of Christ, by which they are pardoned and justified, and freed from obligation to punishment, or eternal death, the just demerits of them: but how should another man know that a brother's sin is not unto death, when it is of the same nature and kind with another man's? it is known by this, that he does not continue in it; he does not live in the constant commission of it; his life is not a course of iniquity; that sin he sins is not a governing one in him; though he falls into it, he rises up out of it through divine grace, and abides not in it; and he has a sense of it, and is sorry for it, after a godly sort, loaths it, and himself for it; is ashamed of it, ingenuously confesses it, and mourns over it and forsakes it: now when any strong believer or spiritual man sees or knows that a brother has sinned, and this is his case,
he shall ask; he shall pray to God for him, that he would administer comfort to him, discover his love, and apply his pardoning grace to him, and indulge him with his presence and the light of his countenance:
Brother Glen
a sin [which is] not unto death; every sin, even the least sin, is in its own nature mortal, or deserving of death; the proper wages of sin is death, yea, death eternal; yet none of the sins of God's elect are unto death, or issue in death, in fact; which is owing not to any different nature there is in their sins, or to their good works which counterbalance them; but to the grace of God, and to the blood and righteousness of Christ, by which they are pardoned and justified, and freed from obligation to punishment, or eternal death, the just demerits of them: but how should another man know that a brother's sin is not unto death, when it is of the same nature and kind with another man's? it is known by this, that he does not continue in it; he does not live in the constant commission of it; his life is not a course of iniquity; that sin he sins is not a governing one in him; though he falls into it, he rises up out of it through divine grace, and abides not in it; and he has a sense of it, and is sorry for it, after a godly sort, loaths it, and himself for it; is ashamed of it, ingenuously confesses it, and mourns over it and forsakes it: now when any strong believer or spiritual man sees or knows that a brother has sinned, and this is his case,
he shall ask; he shall pray to God for him, that he would administer comfort to him, discover his love, and apply his pardoning grace to him, and indulge him with his presence and the light of his countenance:
Brother Glen
