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Jesus and the Rapture
- Thread starter ktn4eg
- Start date
Going off memory, wasn't that pertaining the 12? (on my phone and don't have access to my computer)
I agree with you. It does militate against the teaching of a rapture. Of course, I believe that 1 Thess. 4 also militates against a rapture view - especially when the context is considered.
Tom Butler
New Member
Webdog, could you and asterisktom expand on your views? I'd like to hear more.
Incidentally, I do think that I Thess 4 does speak of a rapture. It just doesn't say when it happens--pre, mid or post trib.
Incidentally, I do think that I Thess 4 does speak of a rapture. It just doesn't say when it happens--pre, mid or post trib.
Because of time constraints right now let me just do a mini-expansion.:type:
I suggest comparing this so-called rapture passage with a remarkably similar one on Matthew. I Thess. 4:15-18 with Matt. 24:30-31.
Are they speaking of the same thing?
Hi Tom Butler,
Brother asterisktom follows the full preterist persuasion (as opposed to "futurism") that AD70 (the sack of Jerusalem by the Roman General Titus) is the complete fulfillment of the Second Coming of Christ in which all has been fulfilled including the events in the Book of Revelation.
I was of the opinion that everyone knew this so forgive me if I am being redundant.
The issue in the present context of I Thess. 4:15-18 and Matt. 24:30-31 is found in:
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
What is the meaning of "this generation"?
Futurism defines it as the "Times of the Gentiles"
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The operative word here is "until", Futurists view it (this generation) as a work in progress to this very day because Jerusalem (and in particular, the Temple Site) is still being trampled down by the Gentiles.
Or as Paul calls it, "the fulness of the Gentiles"
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Again, the operative word is "until".
Full preterists believe that "until" happened in AD70.
Futurists are still waiting for "until" to become an historical event.
Futurists are still waiting for "until" to become an historical event.
The many, many events of all apocalyptic scriptures are viewed by full preterists as mostly allegorical, metaphorical, hyperbole, symbolic, etc.
Take this scripture from the Revelation as an example:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The question here is - in what sense will He be "seen" by every eye.
"seen" Grk. opsetai,
"eye" Grk. opthalmos,
and by whom.
"seen" Grk. opsetai,
"eye" Grk. opthalmos,
and by whom.
All kindreds of the earth - India, China, Africa, or Israel alone (and in particular Jerusalem)..?
There are many many more but let them explain their point of view on this passage lest we be said to misunderstand their position.
Perhaps then we can go on to:
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he (Christ) was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he (Christ) was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
HankD
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As a historical premillennialist, I would say Jesus is talking about not beig taken away before the end of the age. Scripture seems clear there will be a rapture (of some kind) but I don't see a pre-tribulational one...let alone a tribulational period.
Verses 6 - 18 Jesus is praying for the 12. 20 through the end He is praying for all believers.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
Well, while this is basically true, I would say that it leaves out important detail.
First, the retribution on the 1st-century Jews did not just happen at Jerusalem in AD 70 but also in all of the places that they had gathered: Cyrene, Alexandria, Antioch, and - most famously - Masada. There were a few other places. This extended the retribution through the year AD72 or 73.
More importantly, these two developments: 1. military actions of the Romans and the 2. uprisings of local mobs against the Jews (esp. Antioch, Alexandria, and Cyrene) were only the outward indicators of a spiritual reality. This is the real event: The vineyard was being taken from those ungrateful, murderous vineyard workers and given to others. The kingdom was taken away from the national Jews and given to another nation, the "holy nation" of Peter (redeemed Jews and Gentiles) who will bring forth their fruits in due season.
But I want to get back to this parallel between Matt. 24 and Thess. I believe that is where the real crack appeared in my former Amill paradigm. Especially in the cross-referenced uses of the word "episunagoge".
Hopefully I can write more later today. Today promises to be super-busy, the next two days in fact. But this is an important topic.
But thanks for filling in for me here, Hank. You were basically right.
Here are some particulars on the parallel between the two passages. This was taken from one of several sites I could have chosen (http://www.preterist.org/articles/matt.24_and_1_thess.4_compared.asp): I can't seem to keep the spacing of the web page so, in order to make it easier to read I have color-coded the Thess. and Matthew passages green and red.
Event I Thess. 4-5 Matt. 24-25
1. Christ Himself returns 4:16 24:30
2. from heaven 4:16 24:30
3. with a shout 4:16 24:30 (in power)
4. Accompanied by angels 4:16 24:31
5. With trumpet of God 4:16 24:31
6. Believers gathered 4:17 24:31, 40-41
7. In clouds 4:17 24:30
8. Time Unknown 5:1-2 24:36
9. Will come as a thief 5:2,4 24:43
10. Unbelievers unaware of
impending judgment 5:3 24:37-39
11. Judgment comes as
travail upon expectant
mother 5:3 24:8 (RV)
12. Believers not decided 5:4-5 24:4 ff.
13. Believers to watch 5:6 24:42
14. Warning against
drunkenness 5:73 24:49
The above correlation argues against several futurist views, forcing a unity of context that these various "isms" need to keep separate.
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Tom Butler
New Member
My thanks to all of you brothers who have fleshed out your positions. You have been helpful. If ya got more, gimme more.
At present, I'm historical pre-mil, just like preachinjesus. This is where I am today. I may not be there tomorrow.
At present, I'm historical pre-mil, just like preachinjesus. This is where I am today. I may not be there tomorrow.
Sure. There may be more later, In the mean time...
Ask
Seek
Knock
James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
HankD
Given the fact that contextually it is speaking of the 12, how do you use to support it teaching against the rapture? Isn't this the very proof texting your side accuses the pre trib, pre mil's of?
I believe scripture is explicitly clear there 'will be' a literal physical rapture but not only does scripture bear this out but historically it is born out. For nearly 450'ish years the early church held to the Historic Pre-Mil view, which included people such as Polycarp (the apostle John's disciple) as well as the disciples who were taught by disciples of the other apostles. Interesting how they are held to the same physical rapture and we looking for it, AFTER 70 AD and 100 AD, and 300 AD.
Tom Butler
New Member
Thanks for the history, Allan. Just curious, when did the Dispy Pre-Mil come into play? I've read that it sprang from a dream from a young woman named Margaret McDonald back in the early 1800s. Heard anything about that?
Proof-texting?
Is "proof texting" the word you want?
"Proof texting is the method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing." (Theopedia)
"Prooftexting (sometimes "proof-texting" or "proof texting") is the practice of using isolated quotations from a document to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised." (Wikipedia)
I gave you a broad, multi-faceted comparison between two extended passages. How is that proof texting? Or how did I isolate verses?
If I didn't go into further detail it is because I still have this busy day of teaching. When I come back today I hope to address this topic.
But here is an opportunity for you to help me get past my proof-texting, Webdog. Tell me what part of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled in the 1st century and what part is still future. That should get us to the core of the issue.
That and the use of "gathering" in both passages.
And, yes. I agree that it was spoken to the twelve. I am not sure how you think that buttresses your side rather than mine. Perhaps you can elaborate on that too.
Is "proof texting" the word you want?
"Proof texting is the method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing." (Theopedia)
"Prooftexting (sometimes "proof-texting" or "proof texting") is the practice of using isolated quotations from a document to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised." (Wikipedia)
I gave you a broad, multi-faceted comparison between two extended passages. How is that proof texting? Or how did I isolate verses?
If I didn't go into further detail it is because I still have this busy day of teaching. When I come back today I hope to address this topic.
But here is an opportunity for you to help me get past my proof-texting, Webdog. Tell me what part of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled in the 1st century and what part is still future. That should get us to the core of the issue.
That and the use of "gathering" in both passages.
And, yes. I agree that it was spoken to the twelve. I am not sure how you think that buttresses your side rather than mine. Perhaps you can elaborate on that too.
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How do we know that the first section was just for the 12, couldn't it have been the 70, or the unknown number of everyone who had believed in him up to that point? (Like Mary, Martha, Lazarus?
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Nope, that is something started by those who hope others don't actually do any looking into church views or history. In truth, it is a little older than Covenant Theology, but not mainline like CT. Thus Darby was NOT the first person to hold this view as it can be found nearly 300 years earlier. Darby, in this manner is much akin to the likes Augustine and Calvin and Arminius, as Darby did not begin it but was the one who popularized it.
I have posted this a time or two before so I'll do so again:
Here are some examples of those who held and proclaimed a pre-trib view BEFORE 1830 (other than John Darby 1800-1882)
Joseph Mede (1586-1638); (some don't agree that Mede necessarily held to this view as some of his saying can be seen in different ways... but even if we exclude him there are others)
Edward Bickersteth (1786-1850);
James H. Frere (1779-1866);
William Cuninghame (1775-1849); amoung various others.
And while the popularization of the pre-trib view is only slightly younger than the also new-on-scene, Covenant theology, it should be noted to be an older view than Covenant theology in terms of origins, historically.
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he was praying for those who were close to Him and were to lay the foundation of the church. At this point in the chapter there is no reason to think His "disciples" were any other than the 12.