1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Jesus is the Savior of All, Especially those that Believe

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Mar 1, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 1 of 7
  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    1 Timothy 4:

    10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    11 These things command and teach.

    Now the verse states that the God in whom we trust is the Savior of all Anthropon, that mankind, all human beings.
    Couple that with 1 John 2:2 Christ became the appeasement for sin not for the believers only but for the whole world. We see His payment for sin brought salvation to all. But we know not all will accept Him. That is the sentence for a crime is set, laid out by the Judge, then someone steps up and says I will go in their stead. Can someone step up and serve another person's sentence? Of course, is the price for the crime met by the person who serves the sentence, yes, does that make the person who committed the offense any less guilty, of course not. We are all guilty sinners but Jesus met the cost to appease God's requirement for sin and thus He became the Appeasement, Propitiation for our sin that is as we see from 1 Timothy 4:10 those who believe, but not for us only but for all anthropon.

    Very clear how scripture works.

    Now let me write the verse as some will say God has to give one Faith, let's see how this verse would sound: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men in which I give Faith to, specially of those that I allow to believe.
    That changes what was said by Paul tremendously, Paul clearly said that God is the Savior of all (mankind anthropon) especially to those who believe, you see those who believe receive the benefit of the Great Salvation Christ brings to all.
     
    #1 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The term “limited atonement” addresses the question, “For whom did Christ die?” “Whose sin did he atone for?” “For whom did he purchase all the benefits of salvation?” But behind these questions of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died? That question will lead to a more accurate answer to the others.

    If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ, in some particular way, died for those who actually do believe. In the first case, you would believe that the death of Christ did not decisively secure the salvation of anyone; it only made all men savable so that something else would be decisive in saving them, namely their choice. In that case, the death of Christ did not actually remove the sentence of death and did not actually guarantee new life for anyone. Rather it only created possibilities of salvation which could be actualized by people who provide the decisive cause, namely, their faith. In this understanding of the atonement, faith and repentance are not blood-bought gifts of God for particular sinners, but are rather the acts of some sinners that make the blood work for them.

    You begin to see how closely this doctrine of the atonement is connected with irresistible grace. What I think the Bible teaches is that this very irresistible grace is purchased by the blood of Jesus. The new birth is blood-bought. The effectual call is blood-bought. The gift of repentance is blood-bought. None of these acts of irresistible grace is deserved. They came to us because Christ secured them by his blood and righteousness. But that means, he did not secure them for all in the same way. Otherwise all would be born again, and all would be effectually called, and all would receive the gift of repentance.

    So the personal and experiential question we face here is: Do we believe that Christ decisively secured for me the call and life and faith and repentance I now have? Or do I contribute these things from myself so that what he died to achieve counts for me? For if Christ died for all people in the same way, then his death did not infallibly obtain regenerating grace or faith or repentance for those who are saved. We must have regenerated ourselves without the blood-bought miracle of Christ, and we must have come to faith and repentance ourselves without the blood-bought gifts of faith and repentance.

    In other words, if we believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren’t. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to obtain our deliverance from deadness and blindness and rebellion another way. We are left to make our way into the safety of Christ another way, since he did not obtain this entrance (new birth, faith, repentance) for us when he died.

    Who Really Limits the Atonement?

    Therefore, it becomes evident that it is not the Particular Redemptionist who limits the atonement. It is those who deny that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need — namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. They limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement so that they can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, they must limit the atonement to a possibility or an opportunity for salvation if fallen humans can escape from their deadness and rebellion and obtain faith by an effectual means not provided by the cross.

    On the other hand, we do not limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement. Rather we say that in the cross, God had in view the actual, effective redemption of his children from all that would destroy them, including their own unbelief. And we affirm that when Christ died particularly for his bride, he did not simply create a possibility or an opportunity for salvation, but really purchased and infallibly secured for them all that is necessary to get them saved, including the grace of regeneration and the gift of faith.

    We do not deny that Christ died to save all in some sense. Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:10 that in Christ God is “the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” What we deny is that the death of Christ is for all men in the same sense. God sent Christ to save all in some sense. And he sent Christ to save those who believe in a more particular sense. God’s intention is different for each. That is the natural way to read 1 Timothy 4:10.

    For “all men” the death of Christ is the foundation of the free offer of the gospel. This is the meaning of John 3:16, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” The sending of the Son is for the whole world in the sense that Jesus makes plain: so that whoever believes in him should not perish. In that sense God sent Jesus for everyone. Or, to use the words of 1 Timothy 4:10, God is the “Savior of all people” in that Christ died to provide an absolutely reliable and valid offer of forgiveness to all, such that everyone, without exception, who trusts Christ would be saved.

    When the gospel is preached, Christ is offered to all without discrimination. And the offer is absolutely authentic for all. What is offered is Christ, and anyone — absolutely anyone — who receives Christ receives all that he bought for his sheep, his bride. The gospel does not offer a possibility of salvation. It is the possibility of salvation. But what is offered is Christ, and in him the infinite achievement that he accomplished for his people by his death and resurrection.

    I believe my faith is Christ centered and the faith of those who accept universal atonement is self centered. :(
     
    #2 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
  3. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,223
    Likes Received:
    991
    You're mistaking Savior here to be always in the sense of salvation from sins.
     
    #3 Internet Theologian, Mar 1, 2016
  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    My Faith is in a Savior who came as the perfect Son of God while being the perfect seed of a woman as Gen. 3:15 promised. Who lived a perfect life and was able by His Efficacious work on the Cross, was able by that work to bring Salvataion for ALL "Anthropon" mankind, 1 Timothy 4 :10 "...who is the Savior of all men..." states it. He is the Savior of anthropon that is all mankind, that is what scripture states. You can limit it all you want too but Paul and the Holy Spirit didn't limit it, they made it very clear, that God (the Son)"is the Savior of all men,
     
    #4 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He is the Savior of all (in a limited sense as I clearly pointed out) but in the special, eternal life sense, only to those who believe. (By the way, you believe exactly the same thing, unless you believe in universal salvation.)

    The Savior saved me on the cross. Nothing needed to be added. He finished the entire work of satisfying the requirements of the law, the Righteousness of God, and the cleansing of my sin. There was nothing that was insufficient so there was nothing I needed to, or even could, add to the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

    Those who believe in universal atonement have to either believe in universal salvation or believe the sacrifice of Christ was not complete, was not perfect, did not "finish" salvation, but rather was insufficient to bring about our salvation and something more needed to be added.

    I keep asking the same question over and over and over again why two people hear the same message and one gets saved and the other doesn't. And all I get is cop outs. "I can't speak for my neighbor." Or something like that. No, but you can speak for yourself and the question is "what about you was better than your neighbor that resulted in your salvation?" For the universalist there is no honest answer to that question. :(
     
    #5 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    One does because upon conviction he realizes just how lost and undone he is, the other out of pride like Cain refused to heed God's call and do that which is right. It's just that simple. But Christ made it clear in John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Here is exactly why people are condemned for unbelief, where is the sin issue paid for by the Sacrifice. The Jews had to sacrifice each year while we have one sacrifice for sin, Hebrews 10:12, notice it real close, "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" He offered one sacrifice for sins, whose sin, not His own for this man is Jesus Christ. Notice too the plural use He died for sins, 1 John 2:2 says He is the propitiaon for our sins in speaking to believers then the writer went further not for ours only bot for the whole world. No of course the world here is a differnt Greek than the one in 1 Timothy, as it is holos=whole, kosmos=world. Bottom line He paid for sin, the only reason according to Jesus that a person ends up being condemned it failure to believe on the Savior.
     
    #6 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So your answer is that you are better than your neighbor in that he had pride and you had a humble and contrite heart so you heeded God's call and did that which is right?

    So, your salvation is based on what you did, and that you were better than your neighbor?
     
    #7 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    My salvation is based on a positive response to the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men to me! He was lifted up and He does draw all men to Him. John 12:32 Do all have a positive response? Of course not. Why mostly because of a hardened heart.
     
    #8 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you are saying that your salvation is based on your own good work of humbling your heart and the lost guy is lost because he hardened his heart?
     
    #9 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
  10. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    Nope it has nothing to do with good work it has to do with James 4:10, and 1 Peter 5:5-6, as well as, the Parable of the Pharisee and publican. The Pharisee came with pride saying I thank you Lord that I am not like other men, after all he fasted twice a week, he gave tithes of all his possessions. The publican came in humbleness smote on his breast pleading for God's mercy, Jesus said this man went to his house justified rather than the other who exalted himself, because he humbled himself and Jesus stated he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. The publican and Pharisee both had the same opportunity to be saved, but the Pharisee out of pride would not humble himself and left unjustified, the publican left justified before God because he came to God in humbleness of heart and why did Jesus speak this parable?

    Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

    Because the Pharisees trusted in themselves that they were righteous and they despised others who they saw as unrighteous.

    Matthew 18:4 applies to all who are saved, Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

    We must come to Him humbly admitting we are a sinner and need a Savior to pay for our sins, which Jesus has done. We just need to accept the free gift of Salvation offered by the efficacious work of Christ on the cross of Calvary as he took upon Himself sins penalty and died for all mankind. It is those who come to humbly to Him by the drawing of the Holy Spirit who will be saved. Those who harden their hearts continually till they die will be condemned, because they believed not on the Son.

    Edit added:
    Proverbs 16:17-19 answers your question why one rejects and the other accepts too,
    17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
    18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
    19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

    Those who come to Christ must come humbly before Him.
     
    #10 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you are saying that you are saved because you are humble, unlike your neighbor who is not humble like you but is full of pride?

    Isn't that what the parable is about? The Pharisee thinking he was better than the publican? Just as you think you, due to your good work of humility, are better than your neighbor who was not humble enough to deserve salvation like you?
     
    #11 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    No because I am no better than my brother. I'm like everyone in this world totally and utterly depraved with admitting that I would be full of pride. But I by the calling of the Holy Spirit beloved on the Lord Jesus knowing I had nothing in myself to gain salvation came humbly to Christ and He saved me because when I followed His command to believe and call upon Him.

    Edit:
    Psalms 34:18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
    Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
    Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

    Not one of these shows anything about a man's good works all come with an humbel and contrite Heart and that brings them salvation. All who come to Christ must c9ome humbly before Him,

    We see too Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

    We must walk humbly with god for we know nothing of the Spirit without the Spirit dwelling and filling us.

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    All are called and told to come but Whosoever will, let him take the water freely, what water the living water Jesus offered the Samaritan woman.

    All are called to come, but not all answer the call, whosoever will may come to Him and receive the living Water He has to offer. How do they come in humbleness of spirit with a contrite heart.
     
    #12 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    By the way how do you see the Pharisee as being humble, he was full of pride which is totally opposite of humbleness
     
    #13 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly! He was saying the same thing you did. "I am not like this other man." He thought he was more righteous, you though you were more humble. Both are wrong. :)
     
    #14 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So now you are saying you weren't more humble than your neighbor? But you did the good work of following but your neighbor didn't?

    And how can you have it both ways? If you are not better than your neighbor, that is, not more humble than he, how could you, by your own statement "came humbly to Christ?" And he, if he were the same as you, just as humble, didn't come. Why not?
     
    #15 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    No I don't think I was more humble, I came humbly to him, the other man would not humble himself otherwise He too would leave justified.
     
    #16 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So if you had the humility to come and your neighbor didn't you were more humble than he and that is why you merited salvation but your neighbor didn't?
     
    #17 TCassidy, Mar 1, 2016
  18. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    He never humbled himself if he had he too was saved. The thing is if he openly says I will not then he is not humbling himself, that is the difference. One does the other doesn't, just like Cain and Abel, Abel humbled himself and offered a blood sacrifice, had Cain humbled himself and let his belief of salvation by works go and done that which was right in God's sight he too would have been justified.
     
    #18 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    Wrong again, he was never humble so I couldn't have been MORE humble than someone who was never humble.
     
    #19 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
  20. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    Psalms 34:18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
    Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
    Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
     
    #20 revmwc, Mar 1, 2016
Page 1 of 7
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...