Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry

[Zenas]

Zenus, who in the world do you think the "saints" are that this wonderful passage of scripture is referring to???

Its us, Zenus!

You, me, DHK, and every other saint of God here on earth who lifts up any prayer to God. The saints are us here on earth. All who are born again are referred to in the scriptures as "saints". "Saint" is basically synonymous with "Christian"
The Romish church has created this fairy tale that the
"saints" are these super duper ultra "holy" ones who died and then the Romish church, after years of study, (((DECLARED!!!))) to be (((HOLY))) enough the be a "saint"
That is nonsense.

Well, not completely. It is true that the term "saints" in the NT is usually in reference to living Christians. Exceptions would include 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and probably Matthew 27:52. However, the word "saints" has come to mean the inhabitants of Heaven as well as all living Christians. Look up the term in any dictionary. You are partially correct in your perception of what you call the "Romish fairy tale." They do canonize certain holy men and women, although this formal process of canonization did not begin until 973. (This explains the de-canonization of St. Christopher as related by DHK in a previous post on this thread.) But the RCC would not limit the designation of "saint" to someone who has been canonized. Indeed, if that were the case they could never canonize anyone because one of the requirements for canonization is the recognition of two miracles that occured demonstrably as result of persons praying to the candidate for sainthood. I don't buy into all of this and I've pretty much told you all I know about the process.

But I digress. The saints in Heaven, here represented by the 24 elders who are probably the 12 apostles and the 12 patriarchs of Israel, offer up to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Or putting it another way, the saints in Heaven collect the prayers of the saints on earth and offer them up to God. Revelation 5:8 does not say whether these prayers were initially directed to God or to the saints. But it is clear that they do pass through the hands of the 24 elders (saints in Heaven) before reaching God. If the saints in Heaven can collect prayers to God, could they not as well collect prayers to themselves? So why not pray directly to God? Of course we should! But we can also multiply the efficacy of our prayers by asking these holy men to pray for us as well. James 5:16.

By the way, D28, I'm not very close to Berea but I do bleed blue.

 

[bound]

Blessings Bound...

Ahhh, must be talking about the Paraklesis, let’s make it clear what is meant by asking the Most Holy Theotokos to save us. First as an Orthodox Catechumen, the Theotokos isn’t addressed as our ‘Redeemer’. Any pious Orthodox Christian knows that only Jesus Christ is his/her Saviour. The Orthodox Church has never had a notion of the Theotokos as a ‘Redemtrix’.

Grace and Peace,

Perhaps you should read St. Gregory Palamas...

For this reason she pours forth from thence abundant grace upon those who honor her-for she is a receptacle of great graces-and she grants us even our ability to look towards her. Because of her goodness she lavishes sublime gifts upon us and never ceases to provide a profitable and abundant tribute in our behalf. If a man looks towards this concurrence and dispensing of every good, he will say that the Virgin is for virtue and those who live virtuously, what the sun is for perceptible light and those who live in it.

...in the endless age to come, without her mediation, every emanation of illuminating divine light, every revelation of the mysteries of the Godhead, every form of spiritual gift, will exceed the capacity of every created being. She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead. For it is an everlasting ordinance in the heavens that the inferior partake of what lies beyond being, by the mediation of the superior, and the Virgin Mother is incomparably superior to all. It is through her that as many as partake of God do partake

O divine, and now heavenly, Virgin, how can I express all things which pertain to thee? ... The eye of the intellect is through thee made limpid, and through thee the spirit of a man is illumined by the sojourning of the Spirit of God, since thou hast become the steward of the treasury of divine gifts and their vault, and this, not in order to keep them for thyself, but so that thou mightest make created nature replete with grace. Indeed, the steward of those inexhaustible treasuries watches over them so that the riches may be dispensed; and what could confine that wealth which wanes not? Richly, therefore, bestow thy mercy and thy graces upon all thy people, this thine inheritance, O Lady! Dispel the perils which menace us. See how greatly we are expended by our own and by aliens, by those without and by those within. Uplift all by thy might: mollify our fellow citizens one with another and scatter those who assault us from without-like savage beasts. Measure out thy succor and healing in proportion to our passions, apportioning abundant grace to our souls and bodies, sufficient for every necessity. And although we may prove incapable of containing thy bounties, augment our capacity and in this manner bestow them upon us, so that being both saved and fortified by thy grace,... Amen.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

 

[DHK]

It is true that the term "saints" in the NT is usually in reference to living Christians.

The word "saint" means: holy one, set apart, sanctified. A saint is simply one who is saved. He has been set apart and sanctified by the Lord himself. Paul, in almost all of his epistles addresses the saints at....

Look up the term in any dictionary.

This is one of your problems--defining Biblical words with secular sources. It doesn't work. You can look up the word "church" in the dictionary also, and come up with all kinds of unbiblical definitions. One of the most common definitions is the building that the congregation worships. "I am going to church," for example. But nowhere in the Bible does the word "church" refer to a building. Definitions come from the Bible, or Greek lexicons (Greek dictionaries) not secular dictionaries. The New Testament was written in Greek not modern English.

You are partially correct in your perception of what you call the "Romish fairy tale." They do canonize certain holy men and women, although this formal process of canonization did not begin until 973. (This explains the de-canonization of St. Christopher as related by DHK in a previous post on this thread.) But the RCC would not limit the designation of "saint" to someone who has been canonized. Indeed, if that were the case they could never canonize anyone because one of the requirements for canonization is the recognition of two miracles that occured demonstrably as result of persons praying to the candidate for sainthood.

The Catholic Church doesn't know the Biblical meaning of a "saint." They don't know the Biblical meaning of salvation, and thus cannot know the Biblical meaning of a saint--an impossiblity. You must know one to know the other. Their catechism redefines salvation and gives a totally unbibilical view of what salvation is.
As to the requirement of miracles: The magicians of Pharaoh did miracles also. They imitated the first three miracles of Moses. Satan does miracles. The False Prophet of the Tribulation Period will do many miracles. That is not a characteristic of a saint, but perhaps someone who has a demon. Saints are common every day believers in Christ. Take to heart what Jesus said about miracles (signs):

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

I don't buy into all of this and I've pretty much told you all I know about the process.

But I digress. The saints in Heaven, here represented by the 24 elders who are probably the 12 apostles and the 12 patriarchs of Israel, offer up to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

First, it is all purely symbolic.
Secondly you have no evidence that they are the twelve apostles (or even patriarchs). That is simply a guess on your part. Think about this. That was John writing and John witnessing those events. Was John then looking at himself (one of the 12) as he was recording this. I don't think so! (Oh look, there I am! Hi John. Glad to see me.)
They were 24 elders, and the Bible is silent about there exact identification, other than they are 24 elders. Where the Bible is silent we remain silent.

Secondly all prayers are offered to God, by the saints, and do not go through any other intercessor. What you view is something purely symbolic, and are reading far too much into the Book of Revelation. You are reading into it your own pre-conceived ideas--doctrine that is not taught elswhere, and in fact is taught against elsewhere in the Bible. Thus your interpretation of a necessity is absolutely wrong.

Or putting it another way, the saints in Heaven collect the prayers of the saints on earth and offer them up to God.

But that is not what is happening. The saints in Heaven don't go gathering up any prayers at all. Where do you get that from? Again you are reading into Scripture things that are not there.

Revelation 5:8 does not say whether these prayers were initially directed to God or to the saints.

All prayer is directed to God. That we know for certain.

But it is clear that they do pass through the hands of the 24 elders (saints in Heaven) before reaching God.

No, they don't "pass through the hands of the 24 elders or saints. It is a picture. It is symbolic. What is a prayer? It is communication from the heart of man to God. It cannot be seen but only heard by God. It is not visible to the human eye. How can John see words that have been uttered to God? That is an impossibility. Obviously it is a picture; something very symbolic.

If the saints in Heaven can collect prayers to God, could they not as well collect prayers to themselves? So why not pray directly to God? Of course we should!

1. The saints in Heaven cannot collect prayers to God; that is just your imagination; your interpretation.
2. The saints cannot collect any prayers whatsoever. This is just vain imagination.

All prayer is worship. Worship God alone! All other worship; all other prayer is idolatry.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Secondly you have no evidence that they are the twelve apostles (or even patriarchs). That is simply a guess on your part. Think about this. That was John writing and John witnessing those events. Was John then looking at himself (one of the 12) as he was recording this. I don't think so! (Oh look, there I am! Hi John. Glad to see me.)
They were 24 elders, and the Bible is silent about there exact identification, other than they are 24 elders. Where the Bible is silent we remain silent.

DHK,

We should give Zenas the benefit of the doubt here, Bro.

Maybe John saw the back of the 24 elders because their faces were toward God. Maybe they had jerseys on that said Saints and Elders and John forgot to mention that part.:laugh:

Hey, two football teams in heaven with a reserve player on both sides! The Saints and the Elders... with God Himself as coach or Manager:laugh:

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

"So, I presume therefore that me asking you to pray for me would also be considered idolatry by you, since it is 'turning to someone other than Jesus'?"

No, Matt. I have not died and gone to heaven yet. I'm still a sojourner here with you.

If I died and you tried to contact me in heaven it would just as idolatrous as trying to contact Mary.

And, by the way. When Catholics and EOCers say "Why, all we are doing is asking Mary to pray for us, like if you ask your a friend to pray for you", they are being deceitfull. HERE is what is going on...

" "O Mary,
bright dawn of the new world,
Mother of the living,
to you do we entrust the cause of life:
Look down, O Mother,
upon the vast numbers
of babies not allowed to be born,
of the poor whose lives are made difficult,
of men and women
who are victims of brutal violence,
of the elderly and the sick killed
by indifference or out of misguided mercy.
Grant that all who believe in your Son
may proclaim the Gospel of life
with honesty and love
to the people of our time.
Obtain for them the grace
to accept that Gospel
as a gift ever new,
the joy of celebrating it with gratitude
throughout their lives
and the courage to bear witness to it resolutely, in order to build,
together with all people of good will,
the civilization of truth and love,
to the praise and glory of God,
the Creator and lover of life." "

" "Our Lady of the Millennium, Mother of the Redeemer,
with great joy we call you blessed.
In order to carry out His plan of salvation,
God the Father chose you before the creation of the world.
You believed in His love and obeyed His word.
The Son of God desired you for His Mother
when he became man to save the human race.
You received Him with ready obedience and undivided heart.
The Holy Spirit loved you as His mystical spouse
and He filled you with singular gifts.
You allowed yourself to be led
by His hidden and powerful action.
On the eve of the third Christian Millennium.
we entrust to you the Church
which acknowledges you and invokes you as Mother.
To you, Mother of the human family and of the nations,
we confidently entrust the whole of humanity,
with its hopes and fears.
Do not let it lack the light of true wisdom.
Guide its steps in the ways of peace.
Enable all to meet Christ,
the Way and the Truth and the Life.
Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God and our Mother, Mary!" "

That is blasphemy, idolatry, and goddess worship.

Mike

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In one of the Books of the Kings, King Jereboam asked a man of God to pray for him. The man did and God answered the prayer.

Living people can pray for one another.

Paul wrote in four of his Epistles that he made mention of the church he was writing to always in his prayers.

It is quite obvious that those still alive on this earth can and should pray for others.

 

[Matt Black]

In the case of Matt 22 Christ did NOT SAY to the Sadduceed "But regarding the fact that people are alive while dead -- this must certainly be the case since God speaking to Moses at the burning bush says that He is the God of Abraham even though Abraham is technically dead".

IF He HAD said that - He would have made your point above.
Hint: It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to observe that the mythical argument I invented for MB's statement DOES support Matt's argument.

Except that He (Jesus) goes on to say that God is the God of the living not of the dead - ie: to God, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead but living. Hint: it is left as a simple exercise for the reader to observe that Bob's mythical argument is no myth at all but a reality put forward by Christ Himself.

INSTEAD of making that Point Christ said "BUT REGARDING THE RESURRECTION of the dead have you not heard..."

Notice that Christ did NOT say "I am trying to prove that dead people are not really dead ... or that they are alive while dead". Christ's argument was to "PROVE THE RESURRECTION of the DEAD" something that the Sadducees flatly rejected.

Christ's point is that ONLY THROUGH the solution of the RESURRECTION can the statement of God to Moses at the burning bush be "TRUE".

In essence the HEART of Christ's argument must of necessity REJECT the core of the argument AD and MB are making for praying to the dead. (Unless of course A.D and M.B are saying we should "wait for the resurrection of the DEAD" before praying to them)

in Christ,

Bob

You miss the point: although the discussion was about the resurrection of the dead, the Sadducees, along with most Jews, not only rejected the resurrection but any kind of life after death. That puts Jesus' statement about God being the God of the living Abraham Isaac and Jacob in its proper context.

So, Bob, Mike and SFIC, my point still stands - it has not been demonstrated that as far as God is concerned there is any difference between saints living on earth and those whom He has taken to be with Him in glory.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Grace and Peace,
Perhaps you should read St. Gregory Palamas...
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

Thanks for the lovely homily of St. Gregory Palamas; I’m glad you linked the homily in its entirety, so that way we get the whole picture. St. Gregory did a good job referring to Holy Scripture throughout.

Still, I don’t see St. Gregory eluding in his homily that Mary is our ‘Redeemer’, in the sense that Christ Redeems mankind. Maybe I’m starting to understand the differences between worship and veneration or I’m slowly starting to differentiate between an early Century Greek mindset and a modern American mindset.

I think people misconceive the word ‘save’ when they enter a religious dialog. Automatically the word ‘save’ becomes a strict definition of meaning ‘Redemption’. And I think I provided enough Scripture in my last post to prove otherwise.

As an 8-year-old kid I was literally drowning in a hotel swimming pool. If it weren’t for a teenage girl, I would have died, honest to goodness a bright light does flash before your eyes at the moment you lose consciousness. She ‘saved’ my life. Did she ‘Redeem’ me? No, but she did ‘save’ me.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The truth that one is not to pray to Mary has been given. The greatest argument is this:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Scripture does not say

For there is one God, and two mediators between God and men, the man Christ Jesus and his mother;

Mary is not a mediator on our behalf. That position is only filled by Christ Jesus.

When one prays to Mary, one is making her the mediator between God and man and putting her in a position higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.... that is idolatry.

 

[Matt Black]

So if I ask you to pray for me, am I making you a mediator? Is that idolatry?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The truth that one is not to pray to Mary has been given. The greatest argument is this:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Scripture does not say

For there is one God, and two mediators between God and men, the man Christ Jesus and his mother;

Mary is not a mediator on our behalf. That position is only filled by Christ Jesus.

When one prays to Mary, one is making her the mediator between God and man and putting her in a position higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.... that is idolatry.

As an Orthodox Catechumen, Jesus is certainly the ONLY Mediator in the sense that He is the ONLY God-man, the Person who serves as a BRIDGE between the human and the divine.

However, Jesus’ unique role as the only God-man doesn’t mean that nobody else gets to pray for us. This is quite clear in 1 Timothy 2:1-4, in which Paul says that we should all pray for everybody.

This my friend is the same passage that says that there’s but ONE Mediator and that we should also intercede for others.

As I stated in a previous post a few pages back, death doesn’t separate us from the Body of Christ. The dead do not lay in the ground idle waiting for the resurrection, no; the scene in heaven in John’s Revelation is bustling with activity of the Saints, not only worshiping God, but also offering our prayers to God.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AD: the scene in heaven in John’s Revelation is bustling with activity of the Saints, not only worshiping God, but also offering our prayers to God.

HP: What is the reference you are referring to? Thanks.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The truth has been given by DHK and myself. You two refuse it. In the words of Paul,

"But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

I'm outta here.

 

[Matt Black]

Way to duck the question...I ask it again: if I ask you to pray for me, am I making you a mediator and is that idolatry? Yes or no.

 

[bound]

Thanks for the lovely homily of St. Gregory Palamas; I’m glad you linked the homily in its entirety, so that way we get the whole picture. St. Gregory did a good job referring to Holy Scripture throughout.

Still, I don’t see St. Gregory eluding in his homily that Mary is our ‘Redeemer’, in the sense that Christ Redeems mankind. Maybe I’m starting to understand the differences between worship and veneration or I’m slowly starting to differentiate between an early Century Greek mindset and a modern American mindset.

Grace and Peace Agnus_Dei,

Perhaps but St. Gregory makes a strong case for Mediatrix of All Graces....

St. Gregory Palamas:

"She alone stands between God and the whole human race, making God the son of man and men the sons of God. She is the source and root of the race of Liberty, her Body, the Temple of God is the saving Balsam for our race and She alone dwells on the frontier between created and uncreated natures, and those who know God recognize also Her in the habitation of the infinite".

St. Theophanes the Graptos:

"It cannot happen that anyone, of Angels or of men, can come otherwise, in any way whatsoever to participation in the divine gifts flowing from what has been divinely assumed, from the Son of God save through his mother".

The Theotokos is the Dispenser and Distributer of all the wondrous uncreated gifts of the divine Spirit.

As the fountain, the Beginning of Life, She receives wholly the hidden grace of the Spirit and amply distributes it and shares it with others, thus manifesting it.

All things are created for Her and are governed through Her. No one attains the fullness and the goal of life in Christ without Her cooperation or without the Spirit's help.

I think people misconceive the word ‘save’ when they enter a religious dialog. Automatically the word ‘save’ becomes a strict definition of meaning ‘Redemption’. And I think I provided enough Scripture in my last post to prove otherwise.

I'm willing to be more generous than most but I do feel that is a bit of linguistic gymnastics happening to rationalize the position of the Early Church...

Honestly, if the truth of their position was known I don't believe such would be necessary.

As an 8-year-old kid I was literally drowning in a hotel swimming pool. If it weren’t for a teenage girl, I would have died, honest to goodness a bright light does flash before your eyes at the moment you lose consciousness. She ‘saved’ my life. Did she ‘Redeem’ me? No, but she did ‘save’ me.

Again, I don't believe anecdotal evidence is necessary to rationalize linguistic gymnastics on this point. It cheapens the actual position of the Early Church in my humble opinion.

If we are made 'righteous' through Christ as the source of all 'righteousness' and made 'heirs' we too become 'brothers' with Christ... and in Him we too participate in the Godhead. He was the 'first born of many' and the Early Church knew this and thus celebrated in all Faith and Hope the arrival of their own in the Heavenly Kingdom. It's quite beautiful when you ponder it. :laugh:

 

[Agnus_Dei]

HP: What is the reference you are referring to? Thanks.

Read the Book of Revelation HP and find out for yourself. All I can do is show you the door, its you that has to be the one to walk through it.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Grace and Peace Agnus_Dei,

Perhaps but St. Gregory makes a strong case for Mediatrix of All Graces....

St. Gregory Palamas:

"She alone stands between God and the whole human race, making God the son of man and men the sons of God. She is the source and root of the race of Liberty, her Body, the Temple of God is the saving Balsam for our race and She alone dwells on the frontier between created and uncreated natures, and those who know God recognize also Her in the habitation of the infinite".

Blessings Bound: But still St. Gregory isn’t contemplating that Mary is our Redeemer. It was Christ that bore the sins of the world as He was nailed upon that Roman Cross. It was Christ that conquered death! Not Mary or any angle or Saint for that matter.

Mary certainly participates in Salvation History, in that Mary alone cooperated fully with God in giving flesh to God in that He may become the Son of man and men the sons of God. And we in the Orthodox Church recognize Mary for this and is thus an example for all mankind.

So yes, Mary does stand alone between God and the whole human race. For it was Mary the Virgin alone that gave flesh to God! So with that, we venerate her and refer to her as More honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who, a Virgin, gave birth to God the Word, you, are truly the mother of God, we magnify.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[DHK]

Way to duck the question...I ask it again: if I ask you to pray for me, am I making you a mediator and is that idolatry? Yes or no.

If you pray to me, you are worshiping me and it is idolatry. It is a violation of the Ten Commandments. It doesn't matter that whether in your prayer you ask me to mediate for you or not. It doesn't matter what the content of your prayer is. All that matters is that you are praying to me, and that is worship. All prayer is worship. And for you to worship me as such is idolatry. The angel in heaven condemned John for such an action, just as Cornelius was condemned by Peter for the same action.

 

[DHK]

As I stated in a previous post a few pages back, death doesn’t separate us from the Body of Christ. The dead do not lay in the ground idle waiting for the resurrection, no; the scene in heaven in John’s Revelation is bustling with activity of the Saints, not only worshiping God, but also offering our prayers to God.
ICXC NIKA
-

"but also offering our prayers to God"
Don't give the "look for yourself line."
Give the evidence. There is no such scene. There is no such evidence. Nowhere in the Bible does any person, whether on heaven or on earth, pray directly TO another person, as you pray TO Mary and the other saints in Heaven. That is idolatry. Our prayers do not go TO the saints in heaven. They all go directly to God. Thus you are misinterpreting some of the Scripture in a highly symbolic book. There is no one in the Bible (other than pagan idolaters) that prays to any other person, but to God. If there is provide the evidence for yourself. Don't ask us to provide non-existence evidence. That is just foolishness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If you pray to me, you are worshiping me and it is idolatry. It is a violation of the Ten Commandments. It doesn't matter that whether in your prayer you ask me to mediate for you or not. It doesn't matter what the content of your prayer is. All that matters is that you are praying to me, and that is worship. All prayer is worship. And for you to worship me as such is idolatry. The angel in heaven condemned John for such an action, just as Cornelius was condemned by Peter for the same action.

HP: I believe you gave a very good response.:thumbs: No ducks there. :saint: There is a world of difference between asking one to intercede with Christ on your behalf and directing your prayer to another living or deceased person other than Christ. Prayer, whenever it is actually offered is to be as you say, offered to God Himself in the name of Christ Jesus alone. He alone is the mediator between God and man.