Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry

[DHK]

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen!

Total blasphemy!

 

[Matt Black]

Words have more than one meaning. You cannot pick and choose meaning and then interchange them at will according to the context you wish. That does not do justice to God's Word.

For example we are to petition God, or present our petitions to him.
What does that have to do with signing "a petition"? Absolutely nothing. They have two different meanings and one cannot be substituted for the other, and yet this is what you are doing with the word "pray."

Yes, and I am doing it quite legitimately - it does have two different meanings which when properly contextualised are apparent.

"I pray thee sir, what time is it?"
Do you get down on your knees and plead adoringly to a person worshiping him just to ask the time.

Nope - and neither would I do so if I asked a deceased saint to pray for me to God.

DHK: Quote:
Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen!

Total blasphemy!

I'm sure you'll be able to explain that one to the angel Gabriel. And I don't see why what you've quoted is blasphemous at all - one is asking Mary to pray for us to God, in the same way as I would ask my wife to pray for me to God. If the one is blasphemous, then so is the other.

 

[DHK]

I'm sure you'll be able to explain that one to the angel Gabriel. And I don't see why what you've quoted is blasphemous at all - one is asking Mary to pray for us to God, in the same way as I would ask my wife to pray for me to God. If the one is blasphemous, then so is the other.

Millions of Catholics, with rosary in hand, kneel in adoration to Mary, and pray to her beseeching her "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen," something that Mary cannot possibly do. There is no hint anywhere that this is an intercessory prayer; i.e. that Mary is interceding on your behalf to God. She isn't. The prayer is from you to Mary to save you from death. It is just like a prayer of salvation. Save me from death. It is not directed to God. It is not even asking Mary to direct this prayer to God. It is a prayer to Mary and that is all. That is blasphemy! It is putting Mary in the place of God. That is idolatry, that which is condemned in the Ten Commandments. Gabriel doesn't even enter into this conversation.

 

[Matt Black]

I'm not one of the 'millions of Catholics' and I don't do what you describe, but neither is it correct to say that Mary can do 'nothing'; she can pray just as you or I can, in fact in many respects better than you or I can.

 

[DHK]

I'm not one of the 'millions of Catholics' and I don't do what you describe, but neither is it correct to say that Mary can do 'nothing'; she can pray just as you or I can, in fact in many respects better than you or I can.

Other than offering praise to Christ, as we have examples of in the book of Revelation, can you offer any Biblical evidence for the above statement? Where do you get authority to state that Mary has the ability to intercede on behalf of anyone? That is heresy. And here is why:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. It is not Mary. Mary cannot intercede for you or anyperson. It is impossible. Only Christ has that power.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Christ is our advocate, our intercessor, our lawyer, our mediator, our go-between. There is no other. He alone can intercede for us. Mary cannot. If you pray to Mary you commit idolatry; it is that simple.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

As an Orthodox Christian I don’t ask Mary to save me or to stand before God as my ‘advocate’, but we do ask Mary and all the Saints in Heaven to pray for us, that God will save us.

Just b/c Mary and the Saints are no longer physically with us doesn’t mean they are no long the Body of Christ. The Church is ONE as God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE, and death doesn’t separate us.

When my mother calls me and asks that I pray for my drug addicted uncle, that he will be saved (or that God will save him), is absolutely no difference than we Orthodox during Divine Liturgy asking the intercessory prayers of all the Saints and the most Blessed Theotokos to pray for us that God will save us.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[DHK]

As an Orthodox Christian I don’t ask Mary to save me or to stand before God as my ‘advocate’, but we do ask Mary and all the Saints in Heaven to pray for us, that God will save us.

Just b/c Mary and the Saints are no longer physically with us doesn’t mean they are no long the Body of Christ. The Church is ONE as God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE, and death doesn’t separate us.
-

I grew up a Catholic; was 20 years a Catholic; remember my Catholic childhood well. Remember that Catholic children and teens are not the Catholic apologists that come on this board, nor are the average Catholics such as my extended my family. I know what I did, and I know what they do to this day.

Every day I would "pray through the rosary," praying TO Mary 53 times a day. It is a prayer. It can be nothing but a prayer. It is called "The Hail Mary," and is always referred to as a prayer, just as the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Prayer, etc. This is a prayer to Mary. As a prayer to Mary it is worhip of Mary. It is requesting Mary to save you at the hour of your death, a request only Christ can grant. Again remember children aren't theologians.

I put this question to my wife, now a Baptist, formerly a Bible Presbyterian. Truthfully, in spite of my Catholic background she had never heard this prayer before. I asked what does this mean to you: "Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen." When I first said it, she didn't even understand it. I said it again, and then asked the question: Does it sound like the person praying it is asking for intercession from Mary for God to save him from the hour of his death; or does it sound like one praying to Mary asking Mary to save the person from the hour of his death. She answered, "the latter."

This is a prayer in the minds of most that is asking Mary directly asking Mary for salvation at the time of death, something only God can do. It is idolatry. It is blasphemy.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I grew up a Catholic; was 20 years a Catholic; remember my Catholic childhood well. Remember that Catholic children and teens are not the Catholic apologists that come on this board, nor are the average Catholics such as my extended my family. I know what I did, and I know what they do to this day.

Every day I would "pray through the rosary," praying TO Mary 53 times a day. It is a prayer. It can be nothing but a prayer. It is called "The Hail Mary," and is always referred to as a prayer, just as the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Prayer, etc. This is a prayer to Mary. As a prayer to Mary it is worhip of Mary. It is requesting Mary to save you at the hour of your death, a request only Christ can grant. Again remember children aren't theologians.

I put this question to my wife, now a Baptist, formerly a Bible Presbyterian. Truthfully, in spite of my Catholic background she had never heard this prayer before. I asked what does this mean to you: "Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen." When I first said it, she didn't even understand it. I said it again, and then asked the question: Does it sound like the person praying it is asking for intercession from Mary for God to save him from the hour of his death; or does it sound like one praying to Mary asking Mary to save the person from the hour of his death. She answered, "the latter."

This is a prayer in the minds of most that is asking Mary directly asking Mary for salvation at the time of death, something only God can do. It is idolatry. It is blasphemy.

Well, I’m Catholic, but not Roman. As an Orthodox Catechumen Christian, we have no ‘rosary’ that we pray. The typical prayer we are encouraged to pray is the ‘Jesus Prayer’:

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me a sinner

But getting back to your post concerning the rosary: Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

The key words here are pray for us sinners. The Roman Catholic is asking Mary to pray for them as sinners before the throne of God. I see no hint of Mary acting as our advocate and saving, she’s simply praying to God, along with everyone we ask to pray for us.

Again, this is no difference than my mother asking me to pray for my lost uncle.

Now if there's more to the rosary that hints at Mary 'saving' sinners, then please post it, since I'm not farmiliar with the rosary.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[BobRyan]

Guys,

It further occurs to me that Mariolatry either 1) attempts to make Jesus all man and no God OR 2) attempts to make Mary a god equal or superior to Jesus.

Is anyone else getting that?

skypair

I understand how Mariolatry turns Mary into the 4th person of the godhead - queen of heaven -- all-powerful like Christ, and sinless like Christ.

But I don't see how it turns Christ into "all man not God".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for that.

Re prayer, as I think I indicated (to Bob?) earlier in the thread, I think we are in danger of conflating two discrete meanings of the term. The first is the 'old-fashioned' meaning of the word, which simply means 'to ask', and shouldn't involve 'bowing and scraping'.

Asking the dead for favors is in direct opposition to the Isaiah 8 statement forbiding the saints to "consult the dead on behalf of the living" -- and they do it via the act of praying.

The second refers to petitions and intercessions which may only be rendered to God and should involve an attitude of 'bowing and scraping'.

Petitioning in the dead? Seeking their intercession?

Catholic Online Prayers to Mary

PRAYER TUR LADY: Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary, that never was
it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this
confidence, we turn to you, O Virgins of virgins, our Mother. To you
we come, before you we stand...>> and so forth.

Pray TO Mary 1Pray to Mary 2Pray to Mary - Queen of Heaven

Pray to all saints - examples

This informative example above is most interesting for it's wording so exemplary of a directed prayer "to" someone.

<<St Jude Most holy Apostle St. Jude,
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need...... in all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and

to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
Amen.>>

 

[DHK]

I remember growing up before all those long journeys (just like parents today take the time to make sure all the children are buckled safely in), our parents took the time to pray to "Saint Christopher," the patron saint of travel. We had a small medallion of him, a magnet, that clung to the dashboard (when cars were real cars). And we prayed to that saint, "St Christopher!" We prayed for safety.
Mind you a dead person can't do anything for you, much less a person that doesn't even exist!

Yes, after all those years the RCC came clean and admitted that there was no such person as St. Christopher, and all those prayers were in vain. I wonder what the reaction would be if I went and told my dear old parents (now in their 80's) that all their prayers were for naught. To pray to the dead is one thing; to pray to the non-existent, the imaginary, is quite another.
The RCC follows the devil's lies:

John 8:44 Ye (the RCC) are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[BobRyan]

Prayer to Our Lady Immaculate

(Mary Given the role of Christ in Gen 3 - protoevangelian)

Most holy Virgin, who wast pleasing to the Lord and became His Mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on the wretched who implore thy powerful patronage. The wicked serpent, against whom was hurled the first curse, continues fiercely to attack and ensnare the unhappy children of Eve. Do thou, then, O Blessed Mother, our queen and advocate, who from the first instant of thy conception didst crush the head of the enemy, receive the prayers which, united with thee in our single heart, we implore thee to present at the throne of God, that we may never fall into the snares which are laid out for us, and may all arrive at the port of salvation; and, in so many dangers, may the Church and Christian society sing once again the hymn of deliverance and of victory and of peace. Amen.
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=318



A Devotion in Honour of the Sorrowful Heart of Mary
(Hint for the reader: God is asked to intercede with Mary – to get a favor from Mary for us –)

Let Us Pray, - We beseech Thee,
O Lord Jesus Christ,
that the Blessed Virgin Mary
whose heart at the time of Thy passion
was pierced through with the sword of sorrow,
may intercede for us before the throne of mercy,
now and at the hour of our death;
who, with the Father and the Holy Ghost,
livest and reignest,
one God, world without end.

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=620

 

[D28guy]

These that were posted by Bob Ryan are worthy of repeating....

"Most holy Virgin, who wast pleasing to the Lord and became His Mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on the wretched who implore thy powerful patronage. The wicked serpent, against whom was hurled the first curse, continues fiercely to attack and ensnare the unhappy children of Eve. Do thou, then, O Blessed Mother, our queen and advocate, who from the first instant of thy conception didst crush the head of the enemy, receive the prayers which, united with thee in our single heart, we implore thee to present at the throne of God, that we may never fall into the snares which are laid out for us, and may all arrive at the port of salvation; and, in so many dangers, may the Church and Christian society sing once again the hymn of deliverance and of victory and of peace. Amen."

This is nothing short of pure, full strength, blasphemous idolatry and goddess worship of the worst sort.

"Let Us Pray, - We beseech Thee,
O Lord Jesus Christ,
that the Blessed Virgin Mary
whose heart at the time of Thy passion
was pierced through with the sword of sorrow,
may intercede for us before the throne of mercy,
now and at the hour of our death;
who, with the Father and the Holy Ghost,
livest and reignest,
one God, world without end."

Wicked blasphemy, to ask JESUS to persuade Mary to intercede for and help them.

"PRAYER TUR LADY: Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary, that never was
it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this
confidence, we turn to you, O Virgins of virgins, our Mother. To you
we come, before you we stand."

Satan is very very pleased with that idolatrous prayer.

"<<St Jude Most holy Apostle St. Jude,
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need...... in all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
Amen."

Idolatry and blasphemy of the worst sort.

May Almighty God have mercy.

Mike

 

[David Lamb]

I'm not one of the 'millions of Catholics' and I don't do what you describe, but neither is it correct to say that Mary can do 'nothing'; she can pray just as you or I can, in fact in many respects better than you or I can.

How do you know that, Matt? Are we getting back again to the question of "Sola Scriptura"? And the implied idea that God will hear and answer prayers better if we offer them via Mary is wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

And then going beyond that to the point of askig God to interceed for us WITH Mary to GET HER to do us a favor! We would be going to God asking HIM to go to the dead to get them to do us favors!

In the case of St Jude it is a prayer asking the dead for favors and IN EXCHANGE our offering to him the favor of get the living to be devoted TO HIM in prayers and worship!!

It is unthinkable!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

I've heard it a million times...

"Oh, why...all catholics are doing is asking Mary to pray for us, just like you might ask a sister at church to pray for you if you were sick or something."

""Most holy Virgin, who wast pleasing to the Lord and became His Mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on the wretched who implore thy powerful patronage. The wicked serpent, against whom was hurled the first curse, continues fiercely to attack and ensnare the unhappy children of Eve. Do thou, then, O Blessed Mother, our queen and advocate, who from the first instant of thy conception didst crush the head of the enemy, receive the prayers which, united with thee in our single heart, we implore thee to present at the throne of God, that we may never fall into the snares which are laid out for us, and may all arrive at the port of salvation; and, in so many dangers, may the Church and Christian society sing once again the hymn of deliverance and of victory and of peace. Amen."

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Zenas]

I said:

DHK, I think the problem here is that you can't look the saints in the eye and ask for their prayers, like you can with your wife or your friends.

To which DHK said:

If you can look the "saints" in the eye, you are in deep trouble! "Have you been dabbling in witchcraft, the occult, the paranormal or what, that you can actually see their eyes??

About which D28Guy remarked:

DHK, I think you misunderstood his use of the word "you" in the same way you were misunderstood when you said "Jesus will judge you one day"

Just like you did, I think he used the word "you" in a general sense, rather than a specific sense directed at you.

I think the point he was making is... "the problem is *we* cant the look saints in the eye and ask for their prayers"....meaning anyone. (at least I THINK thats what he meant!)

Of course, I am in complete agreement with you regarding this topic, as I'm sure you know. I'd just thought I'd point that out about the "you" in that statement of his.

God bless,

Mike

Thanks, D28. You perceived my intentions correctly. Sometimes it takes a fellow Kentuckian to understand what I'm trying to say.

Also let me say for the record that I do not go to seances, I do not play with ouija boards and tarot cards (whatever they may be), I do not engage in witchcraft or the occult, nor do I engage in any other so-called paranormal activity. I believe these things are forbidden by God and I expect about 99.9% of those who post on this board would concur.

 

[BobRyan]

True - in Isaiah 8 we are forbidden to "consult the DEAD on behalf of the living" and that includes those saints listed in scripture as "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4.

Some (in previous times) have invented the extra-biblical term "the ALIVE in Christ" as a way to reference the group in 1Thess 4 called "the DEAD in Christ". This is used by those who pray to the dead as a way to claim that they are not violating the Isaiah 8 command against doing that VERY thing!

Paul says in 1Thess 4 "WE who ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together WITH THEM" showing at what future time the "DEAD in Christ" become alive and are raptured up to heaven.

At this point it is left as an exercise for the reader to observe just how thoroughly my position slams the door on this idea of praying to the dead. It is air-tight when it comes to a defense against that particular error creeping into the church.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

Prayers to Mary from the recently passed Pope John Paul II....

"O Mary,
bright dawn of the new world,
Mother of the living,
to you do we entrust the cause of life:
Look down, O Mother,
upon the vast numbers
of babies not allowed to be born,
of the poor whose lives are made difficult,
of men and women
who are victims of brutal violence,
of the elderly and the sick killed
by indifference or out of misguided mercy.
Grant that all who believe in your Son
may proclaim the Gospel of life
with honesty and love
to the people of our time.
Obtain for them the grace
to accept that Gospel
as a gift ever new,
the joy of celebrating it with gratitude
throughout their lives
and the courage to bear witness to it resolutely, in order to build,
together with all people of good will,
the civilization of truth and love,
to the praise and glory of God,
the Creator and lover of life."

May God have mercy.

"Our Lady of the Millennium, Mother of the Redeemer,
with great joy we call you blessed.
In order to carry out His plan of salvation,
God the Father chose you before the creation of the world.
You believed in His love and obeyed His word.
The Son of God desired you for His Mother
when he became man to save the human race.
You received Him with ready obedience and undivided heart.
The Holy Spirit loved you as His mystical spouse
and He filled you with singular gifts.
You allowed yourself to be led
by His hidden and powerful action.
On the eve of the third Christian Millennium.
we entrust to you the Church
which acknowledges you and invokes you as Mother.
To you, Mother of the human family and of the nations,
we confidently entrust the whole of humanity,
with its hopes and fears.
Do not let it lack the light of true wisdom.
Guide its steps in the ways of peace.
Enable all to meet Christ,
the Way and the Truth and the Life.
Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God and our Mother, Mary!"

May God have mercy for this hidious goddess worship and blasphemy.


http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/jppray01.html#1


Mike

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Mary is entrusted with the cause of life? Give me a break...

How can the Catholics ascribe to such blasphemy?