-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry
- Thread starter skypair
- Start date
- Status
I said:
I said:
As for your other points, DHK, I will just say that we aren't communicating. You have said at least 10 times that prayer is worship. I have attempted to show the difference between prayer and worship, and Matt Black has made a better case for this than I could possibly make. And you, without citation to Scripture or anything else, keep repeating yourself, "All prayer is worship." You have a right to your opinion but I'm not going to accept your opinion without corroboration from Scripture or some other credible source. So this discussion on what is prayer and what is worship has probably gone as far as it can go. However, I think you should be careful about referring to veneration of Mary and the Saints as idolatry and blasphemy. Some day you and I really will look these people in the eyes and it will be an awkward moment for you.
To which DHK replied:
I gave you five citations in Post #113. Here they are again: Revelation 6:9; Hebrews 12:1; Revelation 8:4; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
I said:
To which DHK replied:
This is more or less how John 20:23 is explained in the footnotes of my Zondervan NASB Study Bible. But it distorts the plain truth of this scripture, I suppose because the truth is hard to handle.
As for your other points, DHK, I will just say that we aren't communicating. You have said at least 10 times that prayer is worship. I have attempted to show the difference between prayer and worship, and Matt Black has made a better case for this than I could possibly make. And you, without citation to Scripture or anything else, keep repeating yourself, "All prayer is worship." You have a right to your opinion but I'm not going to accept your opinion without corroboration from Scripture or some other credible source. So this discussion on what is prayer and what is worship has probably gone as far as it can go. However, I think you should be careful about referring to veneration of Mary and the Saints as idolatry and blasphemy. Some day you and I really will look these people in the eyes and it will be an awkward moment for you.
You are very deceptive to the point of lying. Would you like to give some Scripture that demonstrates that the so-called saints in heaven intercede for us on earth. You just claimed you gave the above Scripture. No, this is what you said:Zenas said:
You simply acknowledge, as we all do, that before the resurrection our spirits will be in Heaven. They will NOT be praying for us, interceding for us, etc. And there is no hint in your post that they will be. So why the lie? You have offered no Biblical proof as I have requested that any saint in heaven has ever prayed for anyone on earth. My request goes unanswered. If you can't answer the question truthfully stop with the lies and the misrepresentation.
This shows that you disagree with other Biblical scholars who know the truth. You don't and they do. Why do you reject the truth of the Word of God?
I have given you Scripture after Scripture. What you are saying here is that you don't read my posts. Go back and read all the Scripture that I have posted. Now the onus is on you. Give me one Scripture where anyone ever prayed to anyone other than God Himself, and that prayer was accepted by God. Give me Scriptural evidence for that. There are examples of that. It is called idolatry, and God condemned it. See the example in Exodus where the nation of Israel danced naked around a golden calf and said this is our god. God condemned them and punished them. He will do the same with those who pray to Mary (the golden calf of the RCC).
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:
I find it facinating that DHK and I agree on this point.
However if Zenas was observant -- he might press DHK for just HOW DHK knows that the spirits of the saints (the DEAD in Christ as Paul calls them) are not listening for prayers and also interceding for the living saints.
He COULD ask that question of me and I could show a POV that clearly shuts down ALL POSSIBLY of such a thing going on heaven heaven as an activity of the departed spirits - the "DEAD in Christ".
in Christ,
Bob
I find it facinating that DHK and I agree on this point.
However if Zenas was observant -- he might press DHK for just HOW DHK knows that the spirits of the saints (the DEAD in Christ as Paul calls them) are not listening for prayers and also interceding for the living saints.
He COULD ask that question of me and I could show a POV that clearly shuts down ALL POSSIBLY of such a thing going on heaven heaven as an activity of the departed spirits - the "DEAD in Christ".
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
Where do you get authority to state that any Christian can pray for another? And yet we do pray for each other...perhaps, according to you, we should stop...DHK said:
With all of which I agree.
Now here we part company: are you seriousy suggesting that the prayers of one Christian on behalf of another are of no value, no worth to God??! If you are ill or in trouble, would you like me to pray for you? Or do you think that that's blasphemous or idolatrous? Surely not!
Last edited by a moderator:
:thumbs: Amen, brother Lamb!Agnus_Dei said:
Then both you and your wife have sadly misunderstood the prayer - and I'm not sure how you've managed to do that; to my mind it is plain words with a plain meaning: "pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." Nowhere does it ask "save us from the hour of our death", does it? So why do you both think it means that? It's quite frankly beyond me as to why someone would put that spin on it. If I telephoned you and asked you to pray for me, and that I was on my deathbed, neither you nor anyone listening in could possibly interpret that as a request from me for you to save me from death, simply to pray for me. Why on earth would you interpret that any other way?DHK said:
How do you knwo she doesn't?David Lamb said:
...versus Apostolic Tradition? Probably, yes.
We don't offer them via Mary any more than if I ask you to pray for me I somehow offer my prayer via you.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Necromancer
One who pretended to discover unknown and future events by summoning and interrogating the dead, De 18:10-11, a crime punishable by stoning to death, Le 20:27. See SORCERER. No good reason can be given for believing that such pretended communications with departed spirits are less offensive to God now than in the time of Moses.
American Tract Society Dictionary
Praying to Mary is not only idolatry, it is necromancy. God's Word declares it to be offensive and an abomination. Such a crime merited death in the Old Testament Law.
The New Testament declares there is but one mediator between God and man... the man Jesus Christ.
Praying to Mary is iniquitous. And the psalmist declared that if one regards iniquity in one's heart, God will not hear that one.
Your prayers to Mary are both foolish and vain.
Necromancer
One who pretended to discover unknown and future events by summoning and interrogating the dead, De 18:10-11, a crime punishable by stoning to death, Le 20:27. See SORCERER. No good reason can be given for believing that such pretended communications with departed spirits are less offensive to God now than in the time of Moses.
American Tract Society Dictionary
Praying to Mary is not only idolatry, it is necromancy. God's Word declares it to be offensive and an abomination. Such a crime merited death in the Old Testament Law.
The New Testament declares there is but one mediator between God and man... the man Jesus Christ.
Praying to Mary is iniquitous. And the psalmist declared that if one regards iniquity in one's heart, God will not hear that one.
Your prayers to Mary are both foolish and vain.
Those who are in Christ shall live for evermore...John 11:25BobRyan said:
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Matt Black said:
Those who are in Christ will hear His voice and follow Him. They will not practice that abominable sin of necromancy...talking to the dead.
Then let me say along with Zenas that I would in no way go to a seance, consult an ouija board, go to a Spiritualist 'church' or indulge in any other form of necromancy. I do however believe that those who are in Christ, though they die, are eternally alive with Him, in accordance with the Scriptures. So 'no' to necromancy but a huge 'Yes' and 'Amen' to Scripture and the promises of Jesus!
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Mary is dead... get over it. She is dead in Christ. Your praying to her is utter heresy, as DHK so succinctly pointed out earlier.
I don't misunderstand the prayer, but I probably did as a child. You misunderstand me. I said that most Catholics misunderstand the prayer, even as I used to. Most Catholics, that is, who are not devout Catholics (such as my next door neighbor). Why? Becuase it is a prayer and not a request! Why do you try to confuse the issue by stating that you are requesting people to intercede for you when you are not. You are praying for Mary (you as in the RCC). It is a prayer, not a request. I don't pray to anyone but God, and I certainly don't pray to anyone to pray for me. I may ask them but I don't pray to them, and therein is the great difference. All prayer, not directed to God, is idolatry. Prayer directed to Mary is idolatry. The RCC (as shown in the countless illustrations above) prays or idolizes Mary, a direct violation of the Ten Commandments. They don't request Mary, the pray to Mary. There is a big difference.Matt Black said:
And yet still no one has given any Biblical evidence of anyone either praying or even asking anyone in heaven to pray for them. Where is the evidence? Where is the Bible in all of this? There isn't any. There isn't a shred of Biblical evidence. It is totally unbiblical, and anti-biblical. It is idloatry.
In Post #162 DHK and I had the following exchange:
I said:
Now I have one request of you. Show me where it says in the Bible that all prayer is worship.
I said:
To which DHK replied:
To which I answered:
Silly me. I must have thought DHK was asking for Scriptural support for the proposition that when people die in the Lord their spirit goes directly to Heaven. How could I have made such a stupid mistake as to think DHK wanted an answer to the question he asked. But no, he wanted Scriptural support for a question he did not ask and now believes I am deceptive and a liar for giving him something else. Strong words for men of good will to use in Christian debate. In Post #163 he says:
DHK, I will not engage in name calling and I'm sorry I didn't have the ability to read your mind as to what you were looking for. If I understand you correctly, you are looking for Biblical proof that any saint in Heaven has ever prayed for anyone on earth. I suggest you try Revelation 5:8: "When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." However, I doubt that you will be satisfied with this because, as with John 20:23, it presents a concept you don't like, i.e. , it is inconsistent with your theology. Therefore, you will reject it.
Now I have one request of you. Show me where it says in the Bible that all prayer is worship.
That would be correct.Zenas said:
Where is the evidence here? Who prayed for who? The only prayers that are offered are offered to God as all prayers are. All prayers are offered to God--all of them. There is no example in the Bible of any prayer directed to anyone other than God, except it be by the heathen or in a state of idolatry.
Here you have the 24 elders worshiping the LAMB--Jesus Christ--the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He is the same lamb that John identified in John 1:29--the lamb that takes away the sin of the world. All prayer and praise is directed to Him--the Lamb--deity.
They were holding harps and bowls of incence which were symbolic of praise and prayer--the praise and prayer of the saints on the earth. But the prayers of those saints on the earth are directed to the Lamb--God. There is no one interceding here. They are just holding a vial representing the prayers of the saints. There is no intercession here. Where does it say that the saints in heaven are interceding for those on earth, and who are these 24 elders?
Do you mean inconsistent with the Bible? I think that that is a better way to describe it.
John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
--This is a picture of the gospel. It is the gospel that grants men forgiveness of sins. It is the rejection of the gospel that leaves man without forgiveness of sins. The Great Commission (Mat.28:19,20) was the last command given to the disciples before Christ ascended back into Heaven. And that was the command he gave--to go and preach the gospel to every creature on earth. Those who would receive would have forgiveness of sins; those would not receive it would not have forgiveness sins. The same applies today.
I don't have to do that. It is in the nature of the definition of the word. God requires worship. If we pray we worship. That is what prayer is. It is your obligation to show me one instance in the Bible where prayer is offered to one individual other than God. That onus is on you.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Zenas said:
Hint: You are making a tactical error here -- I was trying to give you a little bit of wiggle room.
But since you have taken this path - here is another hint -- getting me on the subject of why Dead saints can not possibly be praying for the living -- is not going to help your case from scripture.
In Matt 22 Christ says "God is NOT the God of the dead" and that is because (as you point out in your Eccl 12 reference) the Bible speaks to the subject of death telling us that "The living know that they will die but the dead know not anything".
Although the spirit "of all mankind" goes to God at death - the spirit does NOT go to God "to pray for the living".
In fact even your Rev 5 quote given in your defence shows NO Saint IN heaven praying RATHER it shows the the four beings in heaven and the 24 elders (NONE of whom are ever called "saints") offer the "PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS" TO God... There is no "Saints praying TO the dead" and there is no "saints offering the prayers of the saints to God".
Your entire argument from Rev 5 never makes it off the ground. In the case of Rev 5 the SAINTS that are praying ar the LIVING saints on earth praying "TO GOD"-- and those "offering the prayers of the saints to God" are not the saints "this is not THE SAINTS offering the prayers of the SAINTS"
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt Black said:
John 11 "Lazarus IS DEAD"
Matt 22 "God is not the God of the DEAD"
1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise first"
Eccl 9 "The Living know that they shall die but the DEAD know not anything".
Isaiah 8:19-20 "DO not consult the DEAD on behalf of the LIVING"
Some will begin to see that in scripture "there is a pattern here".
- Status