Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry

[BobRyan]

Where do you get authority to state that any Christian can pray for another? And yet we do pray for each other...perhaps, according to you, we should stop...

Is this the part in your argument-by-equivocation where you want to claim we should be saying this TO each other and asking God to INTERCEDE for us in getting fellow church members to intercede for us? Am I to say "Oh Cindy I emplore your powerful patronage" when I meet her in church? "Oh Cindy receive my prayers"???

"God please intercede with John on my behalf and make John Interced for me"??

Prayer to Our Lady Immaculate

(Mary Given the role of Christ in Gen 3 - protoevangelian)

Most holy Virgin, who wast pleasing to the Lord and became His Mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on the wretched who implore thy powerful patronage. The wicked serpent, against whom was hurled the first curse, continues fiercely to attack and ensnare the unhappy children of Eve. Do thou, then, O Blessed Mother, our queen and advocate, who from the first instant of thy conception didst crush the head of the enemy, receive the prayers which, united with thee in our single heart, we implore thee to present at the throne of God, that we may never fall into the snares which are laid out for us, and may all arrive at the port of salvation; and, in so many dangers, may the Church and Christian society sing once again the hymn of deliverance and of victory and of peace. Amen.
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=318



A Devotion in Honour of the Sorrowful Heart of Mary
(Hint for the reader: God is asked to intercede with Mary – to get a favor from Mary for us –)

Let Us Pray, - We beseech Thee,
O Lord Jesus Christ,
that the Blessed Virgin Mary
whose heart at the time of Thy passion
was pierced through with the sword of sorrow,
may intercede for us before the throne of mercy,
now and at the hour of our death;
who, with the Father and the Holy Ghost,
livest and reignest,
one God, world without end.

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=620

 

[David Lamb]

:thumbs: Amen, brother Lamb!

I don't remember much schoolboy Latin, but I do remember that "Agnus" is "Lamb". So I see why you refer to the person with the board name "Agnus Dei" as "brother Lamb". However, as my actual name as well as the name I use on the BB, is David Lamb, and as I have contributed to this thread, it might cause confusion, especially to anyone who does not know Latin at all, not even my meagre memories from my long-past school days. :laugh:

 

[D28guy]

Zenus,

"If I understand you correctly, you are looking for Biblical proof that any saint in Heaven has ever prayed for anyone on earth. I suggest you try Revelation 5:8: "When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.""

Zenus, who in the world do you think the "saints" are that this wonderful passage of scripture is referring to???

Its us, Zenus!

You, me, DHK, and every other saint of God here on earth who lifts up any prayer to God. The saints are us here on earth. All who are born again are referred to in the scriptures as "saints". "Saint" is basically synonymous with "Christian"

The Romish church has created this fairy tale that the
"saints" are these super duper ultra "holy" ones who died and then the Romish church, after years of study, (((DECLARED!!!))) to be (((HOLY))) enough the be a "saint"

That is nonsense.

The "prayers of the saints" being referred to in that passage of Revelation is our prayers here on earth. This is a wonderful passage for anyone who has doubts that when they pray to God He actually hears.

He does, and this scripture proves that our prayers to God are heard by Him.

But NO prayer to Mary for any reason is included in those prayers.

Grace, peace, and understanding be yours,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

I don't misunderstand the prayer, but I probably did as a child. You misunderstand me. I said that most Catholics misunderstand the prayer, even as I used to. Most Catholics, that is, who are not devout Catholics (such as my next door neighbor). Why? Becuase it is a prayer and not a request! Why do you try to confuse the issue by stating that you are requesting people to intercede for you when you are not. You are praying for Mary (you as in the RCC). It is a prayer, not a request. I don't pray to anyone but God, and I certainly don't pray to anyone to pray for me. I may ask them but I don't pray to them, and therein is the great difference. All prayer, not directed to God, is idolatry. Prayer directed to Mary is idolatry. The RCC (as shown in the countless illustrations above) prays or idolizes Mary, a direct violation of the Ten Commandments. They don't request Mary, the pray to Mary. There is a big difference.

First off, I'm not a Catholic and don't subscribe to the Catholic Church's teaching on Mary 100% (in fact nowhere near). Secondly, it is sadly the case that many Catholics do not understand or follow their Church's teaching on the subject and often end up wrongly praying to Mary at the expense of her Son which, as you rightly point out, is idolatry.

And yet still no one has given any Biblical evidence of anyone either praying or even asking anyone in heaven to pray for them. Where is the evidence? Where is the Bible in all of this? There isn't any. There isn't a shred of Biblical evidence. It is totally unbiblical, and anti-biblical. It is idloatry.

Try Heb 12:1 for starters.

And, SFIC, define 'dead' in the light of the New Covenant.

 

[Matt Black]

John 11 "Lazarus IS DEAD"
Matt 22 "God is not the God of the DEAD"
1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise first"
Eccl 9 "The Living know that they shall die but the DEAD know not anything".
Isaiah 8:19-20 "DO not consult the DEAD on behalf of the LIVING"

Some will begin to see that in scripture "there is a pattern here".

It's a shame you didn't quote some of those Scriptures in context; then you would understand the nature of my question to SFIC.

Eg: Matt 22: 23-32 is in the context of the Sadducees denying the possibility of life after death - something which you and SFIC seem to be doing here. The final verse of this passage is taken from Ex 3:6 - "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living." Now, we know that all three of these patriarchs died physically. But Jesus is nevertheless saying that they are still alive - God is the God of these three and He is declared to be the God of the living - therefore these three physically dead men are declared by Jesus to be yet living.

John 11 - in v.11 , Jesus states that Lazarus 'sleeps/rests' and His meaning is clarified in v.13-14 as unequivocally referring to Lazarus' death. Yet He tells Martha in v25 that "Whoever believes in Me, although he may die, yet he will live". So, here again we have clear evidence that mere physical death does not mean the end of life, providing we are in Christ.

To argue otherwise is not just to contradict the words of the Lord Himself but also to fall into the error of the Sadducees.

 

[Matt Black]

I don't remember much schoolboy Latin, but I do remember that "Agnus" is "Lamb". So I see why you refer to the person with the board name "Agnus Dei" as "brother Lamb". However, as my actual name as well as the name I use on the BB, is David Lamb, and as I have contributed to this thread, it might cause confusion, especially to anyone who does not know Latin at all, not even my meagre memories from my long-past school days. :laugh:

Sorry 'bout that - I did mean Agnus, not you!

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

DHK posted...

"And yet still no one has given any Biblical evidence of anyone either praying or even asking anyone in heaven to pray for them. Where is the evidence? Where is the Bible in all of this? There isn't any. There isn't a shred of Biblical evidence. It is totally unbiblical, and anti-biblical. It is idloatry."

And you said...

"Try Heb 12:1 for starters."

Here is Hebrews 12:1...

"1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"

Not the tiniest bit in that passage regarding praying to anyone in heaven other than Jesus, or asking anyone in heaven to pray for us.

But their IS something in the NEXT TWO verses that DOES apply...

"2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls"

Its JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS that we are to turn to, consider, pray to, and consult. Not Mary, or any other saved sinner in heaven. To do so is pure idolatry.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Again, you're confusing me with a Roman Catholic - an easy-enough mistake to make sometimes, I grant you - but I do not 'consult' Mary or pray to anyone other than Jesus Christ (or the Trinity if you prefer).

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

"Again, you're confusing me with a Roman Catholic - an easy-enough mistake to make sometimes, I grant you - but I do not 'consult' Mary or pray to anyone other than Jesus Christ (or the Trinity if you prefer)."

My response had nothing to do with whether you are Catholic or not. I was simply responding to what you posted.

You posted Hebrews 12:1 as a verse that applied, when DHK asked for a verse that supports praying to anyone in heaven other than God, or asking anyone in heaven to pray for us.

I showed how that passage does not support those idolatrous views in the least, and that the 2 verses following it suppport what we are saying.

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

So, I presume therefore that me asking you to pray for me would also be considered idolatry by you, since it is 'turning to someone other than Jesus'?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And, SFIC, define 'dead' in the light of the New Covenant.

Matt,

According to the New Testament Greek, for verses like

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

and

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

dead means just that... dead literally or figuratively.

Even backing up in 1 Thessalonians 4 to verse fourteen we see

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The word sleep. The word 'sleep' here also is translated as be deceased or dead.

Mary died after the cross. She is dead just as you or I will be when the time comes for the resurrection if the Lord tarry.

 

[Matt Black]

Matt 22: 23-32 is in the context of the Sadducees denying the possibility of life after death - something which you and SFIC seem to be doing here. The final verse of this passage is taken from Ex 3:6 - "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living." Now, we know that all three of these patriarchs died physically. But Jesus is nevertheless saying that they are still alive - God is the God of these three and He is declared to be the God of the living - therefore these three physically dead men are declared by Jesus to be yet living.

John 11 - in v.11 , Jesus states that Lazarus 'sleeps/rests' and His meaning is clarified in v.13-14 as unequivocally referring to Lazarus' death. Yet He tells Martha in v25 that "Whoever believes in Me, although he may die, yet he will live". So, here again we have clear evidence that mere physical death does not mean the end of life, providing we are in Christ.

To argue otherwise is not just to contradict the words of the Lord Himself but also to fall into the error of the Sadducees.

Would you care to reconsider your definition in the light of the above?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Just looked up dead in John 11:14. Yep, it means dead.

Also means dead in verse 25.

Yet shall he live is future tense, Matt. You do see that, don't you? And Lazarus did live again, because Christ raised him that day.

He that liveth and believeth in me shall never die... Greek translates this as 'never die off'. Puts a whole new meaning to it. God is not going to forget those who are His.

And one day Jesus' promise to Mary and Martha will come to pass. The Child of God wil never die off, for one day, the Lord Himself will descend with a shout, with the voice of an archangel. And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain in Him shall be caught up to meet our Lord in the air. So shall we ever be with the Lord.

See that, the Child of God will not die off, for there will be some that are alive and remain in Him when the rapture takes place.

 

[DHK]

First off, I'm not a Catholic and don't subscribe to the Catholic Church's teaching on Mary 100% (in fact nowhere near). Secondly, it is sadly the case that many Catholics do not understand or follow their Church's teaching on the subject and often end up wrongly praying to Mary at the expense of her Son which, as you rightly point out, is idolatry.

First, I know that you are not a Catholic, but you are posting in defence of the Catholic position, and hence the personal pronoun "you." However, even if I use the personal pronoun "you," please take it in a generic way as referring to those whom you are defending, i.e., the RCC position. It is only fair to us to answer in that mode.

Try Heb 12:1 for starters.

Hebrews 12:1-3 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Mike has already answered this question for you. A verse taken out of context becomes a pretext for someone else's text just to show their false doctrine. That is what is being done here (perhaps by yourself); for you have failed to look at the context as Mike pointed out.

But look at the context before verse one.
It is said: Whenever you see a "wherefore" or "therefore" look "before" to see "whyfore" the "wherefore" or "therefore" is there for.
So you need to do that. Wherefore seeing we have so great a cloud of witnesses? Who are they? They are the ones that are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11. They are men and women of faith, who were saved by faith alone. They were made righteous by faith alone. They went on and lived Godly lives by faith. Everything they did was by faith. Wherefore seeing we have all these examples before us--this great company of believers, let us doing the same. And the greatest example is Jesus.

Therefore look unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Here a therefore is not even needed. It is a straight command. It is in the context. It is not the conclusion. Lest we be wearied and faint in our minds look unto Jesus who endured such contradiction of sinners against himself. Consider Him! Look unto Him! The only way that we can look unto Him is by faith, which all those who have gone before us have already done, having not yet received the promise. We have received the promise of salvation; the gospel, and very clearly so. How much greater judgment will come upon us if we reject it. Salvation is by faith.

This has nothing to do with anyone interceding for anyone else. Consider Jesus. Look unto him!

 

[bound]

As an Orthodox Christian I don’t ask Mary to save me or to stand before God as my ‘advocate’, but we do ask Mary and all the Saints in Heaven to pray for us, that God will save us.

Grace and Peace Agnus_Dei,

Um, this isn't true. Eastern and Oriental Orthodox pray for the Holy Theotokos to 'save them'. Orthodox adoration is even 'more' prominent in their Vespers and Feasts than anything you'll find in Roman Catholicism since Vatican II...

I can appreciate you looking at Orthodoxy as some kind of a 'fall-back' position Agnus_Dei but honestly Orthodoxy is just as offensive to Fundamental Baptists as anything coming out of Rome and even more so because they continue in the Holy Traditions of the Early Church.

Just b/c Mary and the Saints are no longer physically with us doesn’t mean they are no long the Body of Christ. The Church is ONE as God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE, and death doesn’t separate us.

To push this point, you'll going to have to get into a conversation concerning 'Theosis' which is going to illuminate Early Church Fathers' teaching on Sanctification and 'why' those who have fallen asleep rise in 'union with the Godhead' as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Most if not all Reformation Traditions have little or no teachings on Sanctification as their Traditions has be largely concerned with establishing 'Justification' as a principle 'by grace through faith'.

Without a grounding in 'Theosis' Mary, the Saints, and Heavenly participation 'in' the Godhead is simply 'unknown' and can't be 'reasoned' by analogies and vague Scriptural passages. Even Cleopas and the other disciples on the way to Emmaus needed our Lord to teach them a 'divine' Exegesis to seen His presence within the Scriptures. Scripture 'alone' without this 'divine' Exegesis is a 'dead' document. The 'keys' to Scripture is 'spiritual' life with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Stand Firm and don't make excuses for your Faith. Live your Faith with conviction and let the Rocks fly if they are going to fly. If God is truly with you, then why are you seeking the approval of other? So, I say, Stand Firm... and take it on the chin. :tonofbricks:

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Grace and Peace Agnus_Dei,

Um, this isn't true. Eastern and Oriental Orthodox pray for the Holy Theotokos to 'save them'.

Blessings Bound...

Ahhh, must be talking about the Paraklesis, let’s make it clear what is meant by asking the Most Holy Theotokos to save us. First as an Orthodox Catechumen, the Theotokos isn’t addressed as our ‘Redeemer’. Any pious Orthodox Christian knows that only Jesus Christ is his/her Saviour. The Orthodox Church has never had a notion of the Theotokos as a ‘Redemtrix’.

We do ask the Theotokos for her prayers for our salvation from the perils of sin. We ask her to ‘save us’ from those things that would impede our ascent towards salvation in Christ. Just as the Paraklesis reads. Oh and by the way, I have never cried in a service until I heard the Paraklesis, the tribute to the Theotokos is beyond words...

Look at Holy Scripture for the word ‘saved’. Acts 2:40, we read St. Paul say …save yourselves from this onward generation… In I Corinthians 1:21 we read that it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save them who believe. We also find in Romans 11:14 that St. Paul, speaking to the Jews, says that he hopes by his example to save some of them.

Needless to say, St. Peter does not suggest that Christians can save themselves. Certainly we do not replace Christ by "preaching" when we understand that preaching has saved believers. And, of course, when St. Paul expressed his desire to save his fellow Jews, he certainly is not, by this expression, taking the redemptive power of Christ.

As in our prayers to the Theotokos, we are using the word save in a special way. This in no way compromises our belief that Christ alone saves and redeems our souls.

Hope that helps

To push this point, you'll going to have to get into a conversation concerning 'Theosis' which is going to illuminate Early Church Fathers' teaching on Sanctification and 'why' those who have fallen asleep rise in 'union with the Godhead' as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Our Adult Sunday School Class is studying Orthodox Spirituality and we just started talking about “Theosis”, interesting and exciting stuff. There's much to be learned from the Desert Fathers...

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Ohhh and one other thing in regard to Mary...let's assume you were drowning in a pool. Would you ask the life guard to 'intercede' for you?

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Shows why it is that scripture argues that "we should NOT consult the DEAD on behalf of the LIVING" Isaiah 8:19-20

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
John 11 "Lazarus IS DEAD"

Matt 22 "God is not the God of the DEAD"
1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise first"
Eccl 9 "The Living know that they shall die but the DEAD know not anything".
Isaiah 8:19-20 "DO not consult the DEAD on behalf of the LIVING"

Some will begin to see that in scripture "there is a pattern here".

Basically the point is the same was "praying to the DEAD" (the DEAD in Christ as 1Thess 4 calls them) as with praying to idols of wood and stone. God argues that the system does not work - according to God whether you pray to stones to wood or to dead ancestors "no one is listening".

And the problem with praying to wood, or stone, or dead ancestors is that it sets a wide open door for the forces of darkness to step in - so God tells us not to do it.

Matt Black
It's a shame you didn't quote some of those Scriptures in context; then you would understand the nature of my question to SFIC.

Eg: Matt 22: 23-32 is in the context of the Sadducees denying the possibility of life after death - something which you and SFIC seem to be doing here. The final verse of this passage is taken from Ex 3:6 - "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Now, we know that all three of these patriarchs died physically. But Jesus is nevertheless saying that they are still alive - God is the God of these three and He is declared to be the God of the living - therefore these three physically dead men are declared by Jesus to be yet living.

First of all - I am always more than enthusiastic to engage in converstation that actually pays attention to the Bible "details" as inconvenient as they might be to your POV.

In the case of Matt 22 Christ did NOT SAY to the Sadduceed "But regarding the fact that people are alive while dead -- this must certainly be the case since God speaking to Moses at the burning bush says that He is the God of Abraham even though Abraham is technically dead".

IF He HAD said that - He would have made your point above.

Hint: It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to observe that the mythical argument I invented for MB's statement DOES support Matt's argument.


INSTEAD of making that Point Christ said "BUT REGARDING THE RESURRECTION of the dead have you not heard..."

Notice that Christ did NOT say "I am trying to prove that dead people are not really dead ... or that they are alive while dead". Christ's argument was to "PROVE THE RESURRECTION of the DEAD" something that the Sadducees flatly rejected.

Christ's point is that ONLY THROUGH the solution of the RESURRECTION can the statement of God to Moses at the burning bush be "TRUE".

In essence the HEART of Christ's argument must of necessity REJECT the core of the argument AD and MB are making for praying to the dead. (Unless of course A.D and M.B are saying we should "wait for the resurrection of the DEAD" before praying to them)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Bob Shows why it is that scripture argues that "we should NOT consult the DEAD on behalf of the LIVING" Isaiah 8:19-20

Bob, our Divine Liturgy is not an John Edwards, crossing over episode. Asking one, be him/her alive with us or in heaven, we are not consulting them to obtain information...

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[DHK]

our Divine Liturgy is not an John Edwards, crossing over episode. Asking one, be him/her alive with us or in heaven, we are not consulting them to obtain information...
ICXC NIKA

You are right. And therein lies the problem. You worship them. You pray to them. You commit idolatry. You break the Ten Commandments. All prayer is worship, and in praying to Mary and whatever other so-called saints you may pray to, you worship them. For all prayer is worship. Give me one example in the Bible where someone prayed and, the prayer was not directed to God. Or if it was not directed God it was directed to an idol and thus called idolatry. Those are the only two options in the Bible--prayer (worship) to God, or idolatry. Which do you choose. Prayer to Mary is idolatry. It is not simply asking for information as you say.
Reading Bob's posts where he quotes many of the RCC prayers to Mary should be enough evidence that these are very worshipful prayers to Mary that adore, revere, and worship her as God.
And the Bible calls this nothing short of idolatry. Only God is worthy of prayer. Only God is worthy of worship.