John 1:21?

[convicted1]

My fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I was reading from the first chapter of John the other morning, and as I read 1:21, there was something that stuck out to me. Here it is.

John 1:19And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

The thing that stuck out to me was this, when they asked him(John) was he "that prophet?", he said "no". So, if he said "no", he knew who "that prophet" was. Here is my question to any who will venture to answer it. Who is "that prophet"? Feel free to jump in at any time!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[kyredneck]

... Who is "that prophet"? Feel free to jump in at any time!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.
25 Ye are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Servant, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities. Acts 3

 

[kyredneck]

But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15:24

I suggest to you that Christ, in the capacity of 'The Prophet, came only to the Jews.

[edit] And for this reason alone we should be careful of what we incorproate as doctrine from the gospels into the Church.

 

[Winman]

Yes, Jesus is The Prophet.

John did not know Jesus was the Christ until he saw the Holy Spirit come down like a dove and abide on Jesus.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John and Jesus were related, so John had probably seen Jesus many times before this, but until he saw the Spirit come down and abiding on him, did not know he was the Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

....John and Jesus were related, so John had probably seen Jesus many times before this, but until he saw the Spirit come down and abiding on him, did not know he was the Christ.

Not disagreeing with you, just throwing this in, John jumped for joy in his mother's womb when Mary with child came near yet in a moment of weakness he asked:

Art thou he that cometh, or look we for another? Mt 11:3

I've often wondered just how well the two knew each other growing up.

 

[Dr. Bob]

John knew Jesus was the Messiah before either were born!! (Lk 1:41ff)

And certainly, prior to the baptism of Jesus (and Spirit descending which, as winman pointed out, was the "confirmation") John knew and recognized Jesus personally, referring to him as the Lamb of God bearing the sin of Jew and Gentile. (Jn 1:29)

I am not certain of contact between the cousins in the 30-35 years prior to the meeting in John. They lived 100 miles apart (via Perea, not a straight line) and in that era one could assume they would not be close. Yet three times a year Jesus would go up to Jerusalem and John lived in an eastern suburb. They were 3 months apart in age and both obviously on a spiritual level vastly different than anyone else. I'd assume that Jesus and family may have stayed with the cousins on many of those occasions. I know I would have!!

(Conjecture for consideration)

 

[convicted1]

22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.
25 Ye are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Servant, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities. Acts 3

Bro KyRedNeck,

Thanks for the quick replies to the thread. So, are you saying/thinking that the Jews(some of them anyways), didn't know the scriptures you just posted were speaking of the coming of Jesus? I just had this thought(I know thats scary, but I am prone to them at least twice a year...LOL), that could they had been looking for another prophet, kinda like those whose ascribe to the MK theology, and that the two that were laying in the streets were/are prophets? I just don't know. However, he did say no when they asked him if he was the Christ, and when they also asked them were he "that prophet". For him to say no, don't you think he knew which prophet they were asking him about? Like I said, I just don't know.

i am I ams!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Yes, Jesus is The Prophet.

John did not know Jesus was the Christ until he saw the Holy Spirit come down like a dove and abide on Jesus.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John and Jesus were related, so John had probably seen Jesus many times before this, but until he saw the Spirit come down and abiding on him, did not know he was the Christ.

Bro Winman,

I beg to differ with you in that John didn't know Jesus until he saw the Spirit abide on him in the river of Jordan.

John 1: 25And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

So John said there is one standing among them that they did not know. If he knew they did not know, then he must have known who he was referring to.

Bro Dr. Bob quoted John 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Just as soon as John saw Jesus coming, he said "Behold the Lamb of God!" Jesus didn't come up to John and introduce Himself to John there, beacuse the day before, John had stated that there was one among them. But like I said in my earlier posts, I just don't know if they were looking for another prophet, or just didn't know "that prophet", was making reference to Jesus' coming to His people.

i am I ams!!

Willis

 

[Winman]

Yes, but John had already been told that he would see someone whom the Spirit would descend upon and abide on. So, John knew the Christ was alive at present, and he even knew he would meet this person. But until he actually saw the Spirit descend upon Jesus, he did not know who the Christ was.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So, John knew that the Christ would be revealed to him, and could therefore tell these people that the Christ was among them.

 

[kyredneck]

Bro KyRedNeck,

Thanks for the quick replies to the thread. So, are you saying/thinking that the Jews(some of them anyways), didn't know the scriptures you just posted were speaking of the coming of Jesus?

Hello Bro Willis,

You know, that's a good question. I'm kinda drawing a blank right now of anywhere prior to Pentecost that any of his disciples acknowledged Him as being that Prophet (I'm in a hurry too, it might come to me later, maybe someone else knows). I do know that in the gospels the Jews themselves wondered at times if He could be the Prophet.

I just had this thought(I know thats scary, but I am prone to them at least twice a year...LOL), that could they had been looking for another prophet, kinda like those whose ascribe to the MK theology, and that the two that were laying in the streets were/are prophets?

I've got an Idealist take on the two witnesses of Rev 11, no time to go into that right now. I don't know anything about MK. Do you mind to rephrase this question? I'm interested.

I just don't know. However, he did say no when they asked him if he was the Christ, and when they also asked them were he "that prophet". For him to say no, don't you think he knew which prophet they were asking him about? Like I said, I just don't know.

Heheh, they asked John if he was Elijah too and he said no and Christ said that he was. I suppose John never knew that.

 

[Winman]

It is difficult to say what the disciples knew and believed. But it is certain many of the people did believe Jesus to be The Prophet Moses spoke about.

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

So, while it cannot be said to a certainty what the disciples knew and believed, it is a fairly safe assumption to believe they believed Jesus to be the prophet Moses had spoken of in Deut 18:15.

Deut 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

 

[percho]

kyredneck

Is John 1:11 relative to Hosea 1:6 or Hosea 1:7 and I do mean relative?

 

[kyredneck]

kyredneck

Is John 1:11 relative to Hosea 1:6 or Hosea 1:7 and I do mean relative?

Percho, the question is vague.

Immediately, Jn 1:11 is Judah, Ho 1:6 is Israel (northern tribes)

Immediately, Ho 1:6 'I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel', i.e. they were not restored from the Assyrian captivity. Ho 1:7 'I will have mercy upon the house of Judah', i.e. they were restored from the Babylonian captivity.

I see the passages as being relative in that 'those that received Him not' in Jn 1:11 were guilty of Mt 12:31, Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31, and thus:

...that I should in any wise pardon them Ho 1:6

 

[convicted1]

Hello Bro Willis,

You know, that's a good question. I'm kinda drawing a blank right now of anywhere prior to Pentecost that any of his disciples acknowledged Him as being that Prophet (I'm in a hurry too, it might come to me later, maybe someone else knows). I do know that in the gospels the Jews themselves wondered at times if He could be the Prophet.



I've got an Idealist take on the two witnesses of Rev 11, no time to go into that right now. I don't know anything about MK. Do you mind to rephrase this question? I'm interested.



Heheh, they asked John if he was Elijah too and he said no and Christ said that he was. I suppose John never knew that.

Bro kyredneck,

Rephase the question??? Boy, you don't much of me, huh? LOL

Well, lemme try to do a better job rephrasing the question. Did some of the Jews think that the Messiah(Jesus), and "that prophet",were to be two different people altogether? I don't know if the scriptures will support this question, but I am not totally convinced that the Jews thought that the Messiah and "that prophet" were to be one in the same, if you catch my drift?

I kinda take this verse that the Jews thought that the Messiah to come, and "that prophet", were to be actually TWO DIFFERENT people, instead of one. IOW, it's just like what Jesus told them(saducces) when they asked Him about the woman who married seven brothers(not at the same time of course), and in the resurrection, whose wife would she be?. He told the saducces(sp?), "ye do greatly err by not knowing the scriptures!" So quite possibly, they didn't know what they read when the read the passage of scriptures you posted in your first post. What do you think? Does this give you a better understanding of what I am trying to ask? I love you Bro!

i am I ams!!

Willis

 

[percho]

Percho, the question is vague.

Immediately, Jn 1:11 is Judah, Ho 1:6 is Israel (northern tribes)

Immediately, Ho 1:6 'I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel', i.e. they were not restored from the Assyrian captivity. Ho 1:7 'I will have mercy upon the house of Judah', i.e. they were restored from the Babylonian captivity.

I see the passages as being relative in that 'those that received Him not' in Jn 1:11 were guilty of Mt 12:31, Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31, and thus:

...that I should in any wise pardon them Ho 1:6

That was my point. The house of Judah was still in the land. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah. He came unto his own. House of Israel was scattered among the nations per Amos 9:9 and Ezekiel 36:19 yet that is who Jesus said he came. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:

What fold do you think is here spoken of and who are the other sheep?
Who is being called Gentiles in Romans 9:24-26 and 1 Cor. 10:1?

I myself am not sure.

 

[npetreley]

The thing that stuck out to me was this, when they asked him(John) was he "that prophet?", he said "no". So, if he said "no", he knew who "that prophet" was.

Willis

What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?

If someone asked me if I'm the 12th Imam, I would say "no." But that doesn't mean I know who the 12th Imam is. And I don't.

 

[kyredneck]

....Did some of the Jews think that the Messiah(Jesus), and "that prophet",were to be two different people altogether? I don't know if the scriptures will support this question, but I am not totally convinced that the Jews thought that the Messiah and "that prophet" were to be one in the same.....

“And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent unto him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; and he confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.”

Willis, I believe it's apparent from the passage that these Jews were asking John about three different entities, Christ, Elijah, and the Prophet. As Charles Hodge stated the interpretation of unfulfilled prophecy is very precarious and I don't believe anyone could have been faulted for not making the connection between the two until it was revealed by the Spirit as in Acts 3.

Consider these prophecies mentioned in Mt 2 alone; who could have correctly surmised beforehand that He would be born in Bethlehem, take refuge in Egypt, and live in Nazareth?

“And thou Bethlehem.....out of thee shall come forth a governor, Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel. “

“......that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt did I call my son.”

“and came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, that he should be called a Nazarene.”


I've often thought that this is one sermon I would love to have heard:

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Lu 24:27

 

[kyredneck]

That was my point. The house of Judah was still in the land. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah. He came unto his own. House of Israel was scattered among the nations per Amos 9:9 and Ezekiel 36:19 yet that is who Jesus said he came.

I believe it was exactly/exclusively to the house of Israel that Christ was sending His apostles to when He gave them 'the Great Commission' as it's commonly referred to. Where these 'lost ten tribes' fit in here I don't know. God knows.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:

What fold do you think is here spoken of and who are the other sheep?
Who is being called Gentiles in Romans 9:24-26 and 1 Cor. 10:1?

I myself am not sure.

I revert to amil at this point concerning Hosea 1:10 [quoted in Ro 9:24-26] and spiritualize it. See:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1548960#post1548960

Compare:
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

...with:

11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;
12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

Percho I must conclude the other fold is the Gentiles. Concerning the passage in Ro 9, consider what is meant by the Gentiles everywhere else in the letter to the Romans.

24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.
26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God. Ro 9

.....in fact, consider Ro 9:24-26 as interpreting the true meaning of the passage in Hosea; thus the amil or spiritual take on the passage.

[edit] It wasn't until the 10th chapter of Acts that God determined the time to begin bringing the 'other fold' in.

 

[kyredneck]

John knew Jesus was the Messiah before either were born!! (Lk 1:41ff)

And certainly, prior to the baptism of Jesus (and Spirit descending which, as winman pointed out, was the "confirmation") John knew and recognized Jesus personally, referring to him as the Lamb of God bearing the sin of Jew and Gentile. (Jn 1:29)

I am not certain of contact between the cousins in the 30-35 years prior to the meeting in John. They lived 100 miles apart (via Perea, not a straight line) and in that era one could assume they would not be close. Yet three times a year Jesus would go up to Jerusalem and John lived in an eastern suburb. They were 3 months apart in age and both obviously on a spiritual level vastly different than anyone else. I'd assume that Jesus and family may have stayed with the cousins on many of those occasions. I know I would have!!

(Conjecture for consideration)

Edersheim gave his conjecture on this in his 'Life & Times', and for the life of me I'm unable to find it. If I do I'll post it.

[edit] I meant to add, if memory serves me right, you're in agreement with him. These pilgramages to Jerusalem were also occasions for 'family reunion' sort of affairs.