John 3:16 cf. John 17:9b

[Allan]

Rarely.

Correct but it does :thumbs:

The point I am making is that if the primary thing the "non-cal" ...snip...bases his theology on are the "world" and "all" passages then he has no real basis for his theology.

And if that is you thought then you have not been paying attention. Very few would state world means 'all men' every time the term world is used, and those who do are a very small minority.With respect to the term 'all', what is disputed is not the definition of the term 'all' but the Cals 'rendition' of when 'all means everyone' or 'all of a group within everyone'

The rest of your arguments seem not to be FOR what you believe but simply against what Calvinists believe.

If it is against, then it contradicts what is believed.. the argument which is against, is in fact FOR what they believe.

 

[Van]

Reply to Iconoclast:

1 "Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17: 24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."


2 "Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end."

"Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth.

"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded -- compare Job 38:4 etc.


3 "Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out" -- compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.


4 "Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.-- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."


5 "Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of un-believers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of un-believers which is in view.


6 "Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!


7 "Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16-17; 6:33; 12;47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.


Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament.

It may be asked, Has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures?

We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilitary, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving," they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ!

Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage?

The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, 'every one') believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life."

That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God's "love."

"God commendeth His love toward US" -- the saints, Romans 5:8.

"Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth" -- every son, Hebrews 12:6.

"We love Him, because He first loved US" -- believers, 1 John 4:19.

The wicked God "pities" (see Matthew 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Romans 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!

By A.W. Pink

Mr. Pink is utterly wrong on this point. But lets narrow my response to how John uses the term, I say only as "fallen mankind" or the "corrupt system of fallen mankind." I say either of these two meanings can be inserted for every use by John of "kosmos."

Now lets review the "Pink" references from John.

(1) John 13:1 "planet earth" or fallen mankind? Those He loved were in the world and so the meaning is departing from mankind, not from planet earth.

(2) John 12:31 presents "kosmos" as "corrupt system of fallen mankind."

(3) 1 John 5:19 refers to the whole world and thus to fallen mankind in the power of the evil one.

(4) John 15:8 refers to fallen mankind hating believers. Believers are "in the world" but not "of the world" and therefore to not share in the corrupt value system of fallen mankind. But in a general sense, all believers were once part of fallen mankind, and therefore can be included under the general reference in most verses.

(5) John 5:24 does not mention "kosmos."

(6) Mr. Pink says, "Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16-17; 6:33; 12;47"
(a) John 1:29 says Jesus takes away the sin of the world. Fallen mankind has the sin that Jesus takes away. What Mr. Pink tries to do here is take the sinner out of the world and then take the sin of the sinner who is no longer part of the world. LOL John is referring to fallen mankind!

(b) John 3:16 refers to fallen mankind, and whoever of fallen mankind who believes in Christ will be saved, thus God is reconciling the world one person at a time. Again we have the fallacy of Calvinists adding "everyone of" the world to the passage and therefore limiting it to believers, when we can add "some of" the world and leaving the meaning of the word as fallen mankind. Their agenda is to rewrite scripture to pour limited atonement into it using the device of claiming "kosmos" means this in this verse and the opposite in that verse. No sale.

(c) John 6:33 again presents the assumption that world must mean everyone of the world, rather than some of the world. Everyone saved was part of "fallen mankind" when they were saved. No need to change the meaning of "Kosmos." No need to say we must save every person when we say we save fallen mankind, when we save one person, we have saved fallen mankind, just not all of it, but a part of fallen mankind remains fallen mankind.

(d) John 12:47 says Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save the world, which fits perfectly with Jesus did not come to judge fallen mankind but to save fallen mankind.

(7) 1 John 4:19 says we love God because He first loved us. This is fully consistent with John 3:16, where God so loved the world of fallen mankind, that He gave His one of a kind Son, so that whoever among fallen mankind who believes in Jesus shall not perish but have eternal life. Everyone that turns to Jesus is drawn by His love for us, fallen mankind.

Do not let the Calvinists rewrite scripture and say if you do not buy it then there is something wrong with you. Twaddle folks, pure twaddle.

 

[psalms109:31]

Allen

Allan I am sorry I always want to put a E instead of an A in your name. I was thinking about what you said of how the old-testament views world.

I can just imagining how the Jews felt. This one who said He was sent by God. The God of Jacob, the God of Abraham said God loved the world not the Jews, not the elected Jews, but the world (The heathens.)

I don't think they liked it either.