John 6:37-39

[Winman]

No Sir, it is scriptures that define "grace" as unmerited favor and your order is wrong. It should be "no grace no faith" rather than "no faith no grace" as faith is of grace not vice versa (Rom. 4:16).

Incorrect. The scriptures show grace follows faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It is only through faith that we have access into God's grace.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The righteousness imputed to Abraham was through faith that it MIGHT BE by grace.

Which came first, Abraham's faith or the righteousness imputed to him? His faith came first, then God showed his grace on Abraham.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God's grace is "through faith". Faith comes first. If grace came first, then this verse should read:

For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That is the way Ephesians 2:8 would read if you were correct and we received faith through grace. But that is not how it reads, you turn it around backwards to say exactly the opposite of what it truly says.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your abusing Rom. 5:2. The perfect tense (stand) demonstrates that the standing in grace preceded access by faith. It was a completed action that stands completed prior to access by faith. That grammatical fact completely anhilates your whole argument. This grammatical fact also demonstrates your reasoning behind Romans 4:16 is also in error.

Furthermore, grace preceded both faith or imputation as Paul introduces "grace" in Romans 4:4 before considering either faith or imputation in Romans 4:5.

Finally, your whole line of argument is obviously wrong as this would attribute both faith and imputation to something other than "grace" and the only other option to grace in this immediate context is "works" (Rom. 4:4; 11:6).

Incorrect. The scriptures show grace follows faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It is only through faith that we have access into God's grace.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The righteousness imputed to Abraham was through faith that it MIGHT BE by grace.

Which came first, Abraham's faith or the righteousness imputed to him? His faith came first, then God showed his grace on Abraham.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God's grace is "through faith". Faith comes first. If grace came first, then this verse should read:

For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That is the way Ephesians 2:8 would read if you were correct and we received faith through grace. But that is not how it reads, you turn it around backwards to say exactly the opposite of what it truly says.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 17:2-3 declares that Jesus gives eternal life (quickening) to only as "many as thou has given him."

The last phrase is a purpose clause in the Greek text as well as in the English text. Here is a clear and explicit statement that declares that the purpose in being given by the Father for all those given to be quickened/regenerated/made to live or give eternal life. The restrictive clause "to as many as were given" denies this is God's purpose for all men or else they too would have been given to the Son.

John 6:37-39 demands all those given to the Son to be quickened will in addition come to the Son in saving faith and not one be lost.

John 6:44 demands that NONE can come to the Son but those the Father draws. Since the rest of mankind was not given to the Son to be quickened then the rest of mankind will not come to the Son in faith because only "as many as were given" to the Son are quickened/regenerated and come to Christ in saving faith. It can be argued clearly on the basis of grammar that the "draw him" is the same "him" that will be raised again as the previous "him" is the object of "draw" not the object of "come."

In addition, drawing is futher defined to include "ALL" that the Father teaches in verse 45 which in turn is equal to "EVERY MAN" who has heard and learned of the Father or else they were not taught. EVERY MAN "cometh to me" Jesus said, that was taught/drawn.

Therefore, being given by the Father to the Son means being quickened, drawn and coming to the Son effectually so that not one is lost.

 

[HankD]

The criteria of selection/election has been debated. They flee to one verse where the term "foreknowledge" is found and interpret it to mean that God chose us because He foreknew we would choose Him. Therefore since He forenew our choice He rubber stamped it by making those foreknown believes His choice.

In your rebutal you could have also included:

KJV Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.​

NKJ Acts 15:18 Known to God from eternity are all His works.​

HankD​

 

[npetreley]

In your rebutal you could have also included:

KJV Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.​

NKJ Acts 15:18 Known to God from eternity are all His works.​

HankD​

Who did He predestine? Those He foreknew, not those whose deeds He foreknew.

Who is rejected? Those He never knew, not those whose deeds He never knew.

 

[Cypress]

In your rebutal you could have also included:

KJV Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.​

NKJ Acts 15:18 Known to God from eternity are all His works.​

HankD​

I don't see how this part of a passage helps since it speaks of God knowing God's actions. No mention of knowing man's actions here. No one could reasonably argue against God knowing what He would do then, now, or ever.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In your rebutal you could have also included:

KJV Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.​

NKJ Acts 15:18 Known to God from eternity are all His works.​

HankD​

They would simply argue that they were foreknown rather than foredetermined by God's purpose. However, both the context of Romans 8:28-31 and the repeated definitive statements of purpose beginning in Ephesians 1:4-11 totally repudiate that definition.

In Romans 8:28 Paul establishes that all things work together "according to God's Purpose." This purpose is the foundation and spring from which the following series of "for whom....he did also" originates. Each item "foreknew, predestinate, called, justified, glorified" are consequential items included in the "all things" that are worked "according to His purpose." His purpose stands as the fountain head from which "all things work" according to.

In Ephesians 1:4 the final infintive purpose clause "that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" demonstrate that nothing foresaw separated them to God but election before the world was to accomplish such separation unto God. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 also demands that they were chosen before the foundation of the world "TO salvation THROUGH sanctification (setting apart) rather than because of foreseen setting apart by faith.

The remainder of Ephesians 1:5-11 provide plenty of reasons for election before the foundation of the world but not one reason is because God foresaw anything in the elect as a cause for election:


Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


In the Bible the term "foreknew" when used of God's elect in the purpose of redemption is never to understood as "foresaw" but previous knowledge that is predetermined because of God's purpose. It is like knowing where every room will be in a house because it is found in the blueprints which reveal the purpose of the Archetech or "according to His purpose" or "according to the good pleasure of His will" .

Thus in the purpose of salvation Jesus could say on judgement day to a great multitude of professed believers "I NEVER KNEW you." He obviously did know them in regard to foresight but never in regard to His purpose of salvation "according to the good pleasure of His will."

 

[Cypress]

In Romans 8:28 Paul establishes that all things work together "according to God's Purpose." This purpose is the foundation and spring from which the following series of "for whom....he did also" originates. Each item "foreknew, predestinate, called, justified, glorified" are consequential items included in the "all things" that are worked "according to His purpose." His purpose stands as the fountain head from which "all things work" according to.
Your paraphrase misses too much here for your conclusions to accurately follow. Romans 8:28 (King James Version)

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. This would leave a lot of things that may or may not work according to God's purpose done by others that don't meet the qualifiers in the passage. Your argument, imo, would be more persuasive if you would avoid stretching the scripture so thinly. If I am found to do so, please feel free to admonish me.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In Romans 8:28 Paul establishes that all things work together "according to God's Purpose." This purpose is the foundation and spring from which the following series of "for whom....he did also" originates. Each item "foreknew, predestinate, called, justified, glorified" are consequential items included in the "all things" that are worked "according to His purpose." His purpose stands as the fountain head from which "all things work" according to.
Your paraphrase misses too much here for your conclusions to accurately follow. Romans 8:28 (King James Version)

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. This would leave a lot of things that may or may not work according to God's purpose done by others that don't meet the qualifiers in the passage. Your argument, imo, would be more persuasive if you would avoid stretching the scripture so thinly. If I am found to do so, please feel free to admonish me.

When Paul says He works "ALL THINGS" it is inclusive of things that others do who are not "called according to His purpose." In fact it is inclusive of "ALL THINGS" that happen. Psa. 76:10 demonstrate that "ALL THINGS" done by the wicked are under the restraint of God to fit within His purpose and never to exceed beyond the limits of His purpose. Ephesians 1:11 explicitly says, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." Therefore, His purpose leaves nothing out that comes into existence. This includes sin and all of its consequences which fit within His purpose just as the Colorado river is restrained within the walls of the Grand Cayon heading for gulf so also sin is restrained within the walls of God's purpose heading for the the exact conclusion God intends.

 

[Cypress]

When Paul says He works "ALL THINGS" it is inclusive of things that others do who are not "called according to His purpose." In fact it is inclusive of "ALL THINGS" that happen. Psa. 76:10 demonstrate that "ALL THINGS" done by the wicked are under the restraint of God to fit within His purpose and never to exceed beyond the limits of His purpose. Ephesians 1:11 explicitly says, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." Therefore, His purpose leaves nothing out that comes into existence. This includes sin and all of its consequences which fit within His purpose just as the Colorado river is restrained within the walls of the Grand Cayon heading for gulf so also sin is restrained within the walls of God's purpose heading for the the exact conclusion God intends.

My point exactly.... just because you say it is inclusive of all things does not make it so. You read way way too much into the passage. It qualifies to whom all things are worked to good for very narrowly. If you can't be content with what this particular passage says, you should find another one that suits your point more accurately.
Another big stretch.....Psalm 76:10 (New King James Version)


10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise You;
With the remainder of wrath You shall gird Yourself......
This has nothing to do with inclusiveness of all things.
Finally Eph1:11 is more on point. But here your analogy may require God to be responsible for sin. True free will is required if man can have a true love relationship with God. If you grant this to be true, then I can accept that God is quite capable of bringing all things ( including sinful acts of free creatures) in line with His ultimate purpose for mankind, without having God responsible for those sinful acts. Otherwise, if you insist, or feel that scripture insists that God's purpose is that something that He hates,i.e. sin, is truly His purpose and that He decrees or ordains it, please show me more clearly.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My point exactly.... just because you say it is inclusive of all things does not make it so. You read way way too much into the passage. It qualifies to whom all things are worked to good for very narrowly. If you can't be content with what this particular passage says, you should find another one that suits your point more accurately.
Another big stretch.....Psalm 76:10 (New King James Version)


10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise You;
With the remainder of wrath You shall gird Yourself......
This has nothing to do with inclusiveness of all things.
Finally Eph1:11 is more on point. But here your analogy may require God to be responsible for sin. True free will is required if man can have a true love relationship with God. If you grant this to be true, then I can accept that God is quite capable of bringing all things ( including sinful acts of free creatures) in line with His ultimate purpose for mankind, without having God responsible for those sinful acts. Otherwise, if you insist, or feel that scripture insists that God's purpose is that something that He hates,i.e. sin, is truly His purpose and that He decrees or ordains it, please show me more clearly.

Nothing comes into existence that is not "according to his purpose" including sin and all of its consquences. God could have prevented sin and all of its consequences but clearly did not. God permitted the entrance of sin into the world by the creation of free choice. Free choice requires permission to sin with all of its consequences even though God hates sin. However, he also decreed that moral free agents would be the responsible source for any choice to sin with all of its consequences.

Finally, Psa 76:10 is pertinent to this discussion as it demonstrates clearly that the will of fallen mankind is not sovereign and God does restrain as well as overrule the human will and its actions. This can be demontrated by many examples throughout scriptures where God limited the circumstances by divine providence so that man cannot do anything he pleases or carry out evil designs. God simply does not permit EVERYTHING man or demons desire and therefore He restrains "all things" that are not "according to his purpose" as well as supervises control over "all things" that do happen.

Your objection that Romans 8:28-32 is stretching "all things" because the context deals with God's elect is invalid because Ephesians 1:11 is found in the same context dealing with the very same words. In addition, both texts by necessity must include all decisions and actions by other rational beings because God's children do not live in a vacuum. Satan and demons are actively working against God and His children in all of their decisions and actions through governments and the lost (Acts 2:23; 4:28; Rom. 9:17,22-23). There has been and there is a battle going on and it is directed against the people of God. God cannot "work all things" without being Sovereign over "all things" that interact and impact His people as well as His specific purposes for His children. His eternal purpose and His sovereignty over all things are inseparable in scriptures and must be or else one would repudiate the other. Any other view paints God taken by surprise by sin and having to scamble plan B.

 

[Cypress]

Nothing comes into existence that is not "according to his purpose" including sin and all of its consquences. God could have prevented sin and all of its consequences but clearly did not. God permitted the entrance of sin into the world by the creation of free choice. Free choice requires permission to sin with all of its consequences even though God hates sin. However, he also decreed that moral free agents would be the responsible source for any choice to sin with all of its consequences.

Finally, Psa 76:10 is pertinent to this discussion as it demonstrates clearly that the will of fallen mankind is not sovereign and God does restrain as well as overrule the human will and its actions. This can be demontrated by many examples throughout scriptures where God limited the circumstances by divine providence so that man cannot do anything he pleases or carry out evil designs. God simply does not permit EVERYTHING man or demons desire and therefore He restrains "all things" that are not "according to his purpose" as well as supervises control over "all things" that do happen.

Your objection that Romans 8:28-32 is stretching "all things" because the context deals with God's elect is invalid because Ephesians 1:11 is found in the same context dealing with the very same words. In addition, both texts by necessity must include all decisions and actions by other rational beings because God's children do not live in a vacuum. Satan and demons are actively working against God and His children in all of their decisions and actions through governments and the lost (Acts 2:23; 4:28; Rom. 9:17,22-23). There has been and there is a battle going on and it is directed against the people of God. God cannot "work all things" without being Sovereign over "all things" that interact and impact His people as well as His specific purposes for His children. His eternal purpose and His sovereignty over all things are inseparable in scriptures and must be or else one would repudiate the other. Any other view paints God taken by surprise by sin and having to scamble plan B.

I agree with your first paragraph except for the first line. Since God told man not to eat from the tree, it was not God's purpose for man to sin, although it was possible
Also agree with paragraph two except for use of 76-10.
Same with three except as I pointed out, the qualifiers are exactly that. They are specific and by no means require extension to all rational beings.
I appreciate your responses though and am glad to find more agreement through them than I expected.

 

[HankD]

I don't see how this part of a passage helps since it speaks of God knowing God's actions. No mention of knowing man's actions here. No one could reasonably argue against God knowing what He would do then, now, or ever.

It is in the context of the inclusion of the gentiles in the work of salvation which I didn't mention.

Acts 15
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.​

Acts 15

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.​

True, there is only a general declaration of the inclusion of the gentiles as well as the jews "for salvation unto the ends of the earth".​

Acts 13
46 Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.​

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.​

HankD​